If presentation IS everything..?

[JJ]

Providing the fly is swimming across the current at the right speed (whatever 'right' is?!), is it better for the fly to be presented deeper than the resting fish, does it have to be on the button or is it better for the fly to be higher in the water?

Given the advice in Hugh Falkus' book on the dominance of presentation over choice of fly, I often wonder if I am fishing too shallow, particularly as I only use a floating line (with/without a sinktip polyleader)?

This might be a stoopid question but do salmon lie with their bellies on the bottom, mid-water or just out-of-sight under the surface? Or like everything in this game, does it vary wildly according to unseen factors?

Any advice gratefully accepted.

Its all a mystery to me! -JJ

[exerod]

Almost all the salmon I've seen in the small Westcountry rivers have been right on the bottom. The few exceptions have been those lying in mid water but alongside vertical rock walls.
In deep gorge pools they will sometimes lie near the surface up near the head of the pool. They seem to do this most when there is rain on the way, it is almost as if they are having a look at the fall at the pool head.

How deep should you fish? I haven't a clue I always think the logical thing is to sink the lure/bait/fly as deep as possible thus making it less effort for the fish to take it, but then look at all the fish caught on small flies just under the surface

Tight lines

Andy

[macd]

as the water warms the salmon are more inclined to move to a fly. generally for floating line work, the fly will be above the fish.

the fish see the fly silhouetted against the sky. you want the fish to come up after the fly and turn down with it.

the fly will be a few inches below the surface. dont get too hung up on the exact depth- salmon dont read books. vary the polyleaders you use and as always ask the guys around you on the river.

salmon often lie in a depression on the river bed- you will see some of them have grazed bellies- depends on the pool.

you are right it does vary. but the more you fish the more you will develop a sense of what works... patience and lots of it is the only way.

tight lines
macd

[Fruin]

Good question.

My opinion is that the fly should be at about the height of, or above, the fish. My main reason for this is that I like sunk line fishing in sping and autumn, but occasionaly somebody will fish down a pool after me with a similar casting angle, mending and fly pattern and pull out a fish or two. A switch to an intermediate or a sink tip and I start catching to. The only explanation that I can think of is that I must have been presenting the fly below the fish and they showed no interest. Once the depth of presentation switches to higher in the water column they see the fly better.

What depth fish lie at all depends on individual pool characteristics. They obviously have a comfort zone and will find that at whatever depth.

The right speed will vary because it often pays to fish big flash patterns quick and small drab patterns slow.

Unfortunately, it is often a matter of trial and error to find out what works for individual pools. As macd said, you will need patience.

[exerod]

Do fish really lie in mid water, as I say all my experience is in small clear rivers and apart from in gorge pools I have never seen a fish lie anywhere but right on the bottom. Even if they are lying in mid water why would they ignore a fly presented below them? It wont be that difficult to see it and they pick worms off the bottom often enough (but not often enough when I fish them).

Tight lines

Andy

[Fruin]

Fish definitely lie in mid water. Some say that they prefer 3 - 6ft of water and if that puts them on the bottom then so be it.

The worm usually scores best in higher water when the fish are likely to be seeking the solitude of the slower water closer to the river bed, or tucked into small depressions or wherever else they can find a comfortable lie.

Any fishery biologists online?

[exerod]

I think it must have something to do with the smallness of the rivers I fish. Maybe the fish just don't feel secure unless close to cover and the only cover in a small river is depth. Down here I find it is very unusual to see a fish anywhere other than glued to the bottom.
In Cornwall I was told that to stand any chance you had to get the spinner (not a lot of fly fishing in Cornwall!) into the bottom third, by which they meant in water six foot deep get the spinner at least 4 foot down and in nine foot of water at least six foot down!

Tight lines

Andy

[storlaks]

I think the important factor here is where salmon are more likely to take a fly which is presented across a pool. In the Springtime, when the water is colder you certainly want to present a fly slower and deeper, but not necessarily dredging the bottom. Salmon lying in 3-6 feet of water are definately easier caught than salmon lying in deep holes, so concentrate on the parts of the pool that offer the best chance of taking a fish. This can be tails, necks and also around large rocks, ledges, croys, inside of bends. In the colder temps they will favour lies that offer relief from the main current as they are trying to conserve energy. This is especially true for running/moving/resting fish. The rule of thumb is the colder the temp, the slower and deeper you fish the fly. This rule derives from a salmon's life at sea. If sea temps are cold then the salmon are used to feeding at depth where the water temp will be warmer than the surface temp. That's why our Spring flies try to represent small fish which are found at these depths.

Later in the season, when water temps start to rise, the same rules can apply as to where to find fish, but these fish now will be more active and make seek lies which are more oxygenated i.e. in the faster flowing parts of the pools. At sea they would also be looking for food nearer the surface, hence we try to emulate this in our fishing effort. Floating lines/sinktips with shrimp style patterns, fished faster than in Sprintime.

The thing is, none of this is a guarantee of success. It's a case of trying, changing and trying again if it's not working. Variation of fly sizes, depth and speed are all part of the fun in fly fishing for salmon. Don't be afraid of doing something completely different, if nothing is being caught. A sunkline in the summer can work just as well as in Springtime, given the right conditions. This also applies to the use of floaters in springtime.

sorry for ranting a bit. Hope it helps. (-:

[JJ]

What great answers and certainly food for thought.

Thanks guys - JJ

[kercock]

Salmon can stop in a pool for several different reasons,most of which I do'nt profess to understand For instance, a riverbank which has a tree or two spaced out along it. you could just about bet your life salmon will lie close to it,or, a line of trees along a riverbank with a gap in it,your fish will be around that gap,there are lots of scenarios like that. There may be a bare bank with a wire fence along the top of the bank,look and see where the thick strainer post is,cos I would be willing to bet that is where your fish is lying,in front of it. The biggie is where the electric wires cross your river that area is virtually a cert to get your fish from,why,nobody knows,least of all me. The thing is you can only learn so much from books and dvd's tapes and listening to others ,you have to apply that information yourself. The bottom line is it's up to you.

[bagoworms]

Pick up on kercock (late better than never) wires across a pool = pool worth fishing hard, just below the volts/amps/grannies telephone call to Lakeland Plastics. Why? Dunno, just know. Believe you could leave a pair of wellies or a Tesco bag on a bank and sooner or later, for some inexplicable reason fish would be queueing up to lie there.

Moral? Wires? - I've heard and experienced that one too many times to think it's a fluke.

Otherwise, who knows what/how a fish thinks? I've been married since ships were all wood and still have nae idea why my partner for life(?) thinks it is OK to welcome a new day with an expression of excess wind and a forlorn promise of a cup of tea. Isn't it strange how we seek wisdom about a thing with a brain the size of a pinhead - and yet still find to fish?

[ibm59]

bagoworms said:

I've been married since ships were all wood and still have nae idea why my partner for life(?) thinks it is OK to welcome a new day with an expression of excess wind and a forlorn promise of a cup of tea.

My other half complains incessantly about exactly the same thing.
Can usually summon up a good thunderclap but I'm off fishing before the boiler's ready.
Ps. My first ship was made of wood.

[neptune]

i met a holidaymaker the other day who was looking for a decent spot for fly fishing. anyway yhe subject turned to fly tying i told him i was just learning & he told me "when youve tied your fly hold it up above your head to see how it looks as this is how the fish will see it" i dont know if this is any help with the original question but he said ive been tying flies for 45 years and they do the job so maybe it is best to have the fly above the fish??

[rpsalmon]

Looking at a fly from below is one angle that the fish may look at it, but what the sides or the rear etc?. I admire the principal of looking at the lure from the fish's view, but what are we looking for? A shrimp, prawn, fish ?

[para1]

I think a fish sees the fly sooner and longer when it's above it than coming in from the side.
As regards the wires, I put on somewhere that wires had recently been removed from a stretch that I used to to do quite well on. It is not playing now, they haven't read the books, or have they.:-)

[neptune]

sorry i cant answer this 1 further but i may be lucky enough to bump into this holiday maker if he reached the fishing spots i told him to go to as i was (working) at the time i didnt have long to speak well 20 mins during working time is a lot ihope i do so i can question his knowledge further