Shooting heads - some observations

[scotview]

Firstly let me say that I cannot cast vast distances. I am also not as young as I was and I find it tiring to cast all day, especially with a sinking line. I have invested in a shooting head set-up to make life easier.

I purhased Loop Adapted Shooting heads from www.tacklebargains.co.uk/ . The lines are 10/11 Floating, Intermediate & Fast sink . I also purchased a Loop adapted running line.

I have used these lines on several outings and have tuned them to my 15' Shakespeare Oracle4.

I would make the following observations, which I hope you may find interesting.

1. I have, in the past, been using a Windcutter multi-tip 10/11 line and have been happy with it. The Loop running line is however much slicker and shoots much better compared to the Windcutter running line which is fairly thick & quite rigid.

2. I have tuned all 3 lines to my 15’ Shakespeare Oracle . The 14’ Oracle also handles these lines reasonably well even when deep wading.

3. I have had to cut the Fast sink line quite short but it casts almost as far as the floater, is very easy to lift in a oner without roll casting, it casts well in windy conditions and seems to achieve good depth and fishes round slowly. (does anyone know of a high density floating line that can shoot like a sinker ?)

4. I am left handed and can cast RH or LH. When casting in a downstream wind, I have been pleasantly surprised how well the Loop shooting heads can cast a double spey cast, even off the bank.

5. To make loops for the shooting heads I have bought 50lb braided mono. I have tried both Cortland & Gudebrod braided mono. The Cortland mono doesn’t open out easily for threading the thick line up inside, it is also powdery. The Gudebrod however has a very open weave and even the thick floating line threads up inside the Gudebrod fairly easily.

6. The lines are fairly easily changed over and it is great to have effectively 3 lines readily at hand. I will however have to track down a suitable wallet to keep these fairly bulky heads in. I believe RIO make such a product.

I hope you find this feedback useful

[tynetraveller]

Scotview- Do you use polytips with the adapted heads?- I had my adapted heads for a long time and despised them before I read that they were designed for use with polytips. With a polytip they spey cast very well and unsurprisingly match my loop greyline rod beautifully.

[ceilidh]

Scotview,
Sportfish and probably other tackle dealers sell empty 5 pocket Airflow wallets. A bit more than CD ones, but not much and they are made of a fine mesh which will allow the heads to dry.

[scotview]

Tynetraveller,

I had a week on Lower Wester Elchies last week and had a chance to try out various combinations of rods, shooting heads and tips.

I attempted to match one set of 10/11 Loop Adapted shooting heads to 14', 15' & 16' rods (being a true frugal native of Aberdeenshire ! ).

The following are observations on various combinations

1 The Floating & Intermediate heads worked well with 5' poly tips when I used my 14' Shakespeare Oracle. I tried a 15' intermediate head from a 10/11 windcutter but this was much too heavy for the 14 footer.

2 I then tried the 5' polytip on my 15' Oracle, this worked acceptably. I also tried the shooting heads with the 15' Intermediate tip from a 10/11 windcutter line. This provided more weight and worked very well indeed with the 15' foot Oracle.

3 I also tried the Intermediate shooting head with a 16' Vision rod. The Shooting Head was much too short with no tip attached and would also not anchor with a 5' poly tip. When I attached the 15' RIO intermediate tip the line anchored & I cast the furthest I have ever cast with a short head type line, it really pulled out the running line.


In summary, I feel that one shooting head linked to different tip combinations can be an extremely versatile fishing machine. The longer the rod the heavier the tip.

[tynetraveller]

Thanks Scotview. When using the adapted head on my 15fter, I have a set of 12ft multi-tips from an airflo 8/9 wt multi-tip line and the adapted heads shoot out with these on ( and turnover a BIG fly well)and the heads also work well with the standard airflo 10ft polyleaders.

PS- You can't really claim to be frugal when you are using three rods where one would do. Beware- Tackle Tart-isis is creeping up on you!

[petersc]

just a quick note . . .

When buying shooting head wallets, don't get the small ones meant for polyleaders and sinktips as they won't hold much. There are larger ones available that are about 5 1/2 inches per side.

Here's a picture of the larger version along with a storage bag:

home.mountaincable.net/~pcharles/scando-4.html

[madkeen]

What's the best way to coil the heads before storage to prevent line twist or isn't it a problem with shooting heads?

[petersc]

Coil the head over your fingers, making as a large a loop as possible, then secure with wire chenille. I always wind starting from the butt end. By doing so, when changing heads while on the water, I just have to loop-to-loop connect the coiled head to the running line, remove the chenille, then simply drop the head in the water. If I've done everything right and the fishing gods are smiling on me, the current carries the head downstream, uncoiling it as it goes.

The link in my previous post shows what these coiled heads look like when packed away. I've been doing this for a while with no kinking or other issues. Once a routine has been estabished, a head change while on the water, can be done in a couple of minutes or so.

[castlikeaghille]

scotview said:

Tynetraveller,

I had a week on Lower Wester Elchies last week and had a chance to try out various combinations of rods, shooting heads and tips.

I attempted to match one set of 10/11 Loop Adapted shooting heads to 14', 15' & 16' rods (being a true frugal native of Aberdeenshire ! ).

The following are observations on various combinations

1 The Floating & Intermediate heads worked well with 5' poly tips when I used my 14' Shakespeare Oracle. I tried a 15' intermediate head from a 10/11 windcutter but this was much too heavy for the 14 footer.

2 I then tried the 5' polytip on my 15' Oracle, this worked acceptably. I also tried the shooting heads with the 15' Intermediate tip from a 10/11 windcutter line. This provided more weight and worked very well indeed with the 15' foot Oracle.

3 I also tried the Intermediate shooting head with a 16' Vision rod. The Shooting Head was much too short with no tip attached and would also not anchor with a 5' poly tip. When I attached the 15' RIO intermediate tip the line anchored & I cast the furthest I have ever cast with a short head type line, it really pulled out the running line.


In summary, I feel that one shooting head linked to different tip combinations can be an extremely versatile fishing machine. The longer the rod the heavier the tip.

Hello SV

I have exactly the same range of heads and running line fromTBin's as yoursel (although I now use Shakey Wors for other reasons) and the Loop running line. A question I hope you ar eable to come back on and a couple of observations on which I hope you comment:

i) I wasn't quite clear if you were using these for Spey or over head casting

2) Collie Dog finds the use of a poly leader essential on the sinking profile

3) the orange loop running line is outstanding as is gruebond 50lbs braid which we also use.

Best wishes

CLaG

[tynetraveller]

ClaG- I use the orange loop running line and it is good stuff, thin and as memory free as anything else and very shootable- certainly better by a huge margin than Airflo Poly Shoot and the yellow floating ( non-ridged) Guideline running line that I have used.

I do not see how anyone could form a decent D-loop without a poly tip on the Adapted head. even with a couple of feet overhanging, they are just too short. I certainly spent a few hours trying before I added a polyleader, and it was not a pleasant experience.

Cheers, Simon

[castlikeaghille]

tynetraveller said:

ClaG- I use the orange loop running line and it is good stuff, thin and as memory free as anything else and very shootable- certainly better by a huge margin than Airflo Poly Shoot and the yellow floating ( non-ridged) Guideline running line that I have used.

I do not see how anyone could form a decent D-loop without a poly tip on the Adapted head. even with a couple of feet overhanging, they are just too short. I certainly spent a few hours trying before I added a polyleader, and it was not a pleasant experience.

Cheers, Simon

On your second point that's why I've stopped using the Loop Heads and moved to the Shakey Worcs which are much longer. I use AFTM 12 on a #10 rated rod. Cut off the back taper and they spey cast like a dream no requirement to add any tip. Cost of three Shakey's from Mularky's £45 (loops made from 50lbs Gruebond Braid).

One small observation. On the braided loops (fore and aft) we whip them on and acquasure the whipping. However, we also acquasure the point where the line meets the actual braided loop (at both ends). If you use a a hair drier on the acquasure it really sinks into the braid and forms a very smooth and solid join that stops the end of the line poking through the braid.

I've kept the Loops in case I was on parts of the Tay where there was room and sometimes need to overhead cast them on the 16'

Regards

CLaG

[scotview]

ClaG,

to answer your ponts,

1 I was spey casting, or rather my version of underhand casting.

2 The intermediate SH works well with a tip. I find that the fast sink works without a tip. The fast sink seems to have a lot of mass and really pulls out the running line.

3 I find that the Loop orange running line very good. I have started regularly cleaning it with Pledge furniture polish, this helps prevent tangling & makes the line very slick.

I use the Gudebrod 50lb braid to make loops, picture below. I do a double loop which is very strong, I nail knot with Maxima, trim off the excess & use fly tying varnish to give a smooth finish at the nail knot.

I'll try the gudebrod as a running line.

[macd]

hi SV

picking up on your point about the sands of time.

I was in norway last year and spent some time being lectured about underhand casting by the local Dr. He was getting on himself and was most insistent that the no1. benefit of using SHs and the UHC was that it was physically less demanding than our speycast. He was convinced that it extended his fishing career.

Many of the lads that compete in spey comps are finding that it is taking its toll on the shoulder.

Just a thought, but might be worth learning the cast for that reason alone.

R

[macd]

scotview said:

ClaG,

to answer your ponts,

1 I was spey casting, or rather my version of underhand casting.

2 The intermediate SH works well with a tip. I find that the fast sink works without a tip. The fast sink seems to have a lot of mass and really pulls out the running line.

3 I find that the Loop orange running line very good. I have started regularly cleaning it with Pledge furniture polish, this helps prevent tangling & makes the line very slick.

I use the Gudebrod 50lb braid to make loops, picture below. I do a double loop which is very strong, I nail knot with Maxima, trim off the excess & use fly tying varnish to give a smooth finish at the nail knot.

I'll try the gudebrod as a running line.

try aquasure instead of varnish- stronger and more flexible

[tynetraveller]

I will try to locate some gudebrod 50lb braid- It sounds useful both for making loops and as a running line. I am thinking that if i load some braid onto the backing, then loop to loop that to my loop running line, I could simply de-spool the running line and use the braid when all-out distance is a priority.

The Worcester shooting heads sound like a good idea, but I fish the Kharlovka in early spring when fast heads are needed in big water, and when wading deep the Loop ( with tips) system is as long as you would want to have to lift whilst wading deep all day. Other than that, my use of the heads is almost always the inter with a collie dog.

One other note, I also have the Guideline PTs cut at 12.5 m on a Le Cie 15'9 and they seem heavier. In sink 2/3 or denser they overhead cast considerably further than the Loop heads- At least in my limited experience with them so far- It may just be the Le Cie rod that I have not yet tried with the Loop heads.

[castlikeaghille]

tynetraveller said:

I will try to locate some gudebrod 50lb braid- It sounds useful both for making loops and as a running line. I am thinking that if i load some braid onto the backing, then loop to loop that to my loop running line, I could simply de-spool the running line and use the braid when all-out distance is a priority.

The Worcester shooting heads sound like a good idea, but I fish the Kharlovka in early spring when fast heads are needed in big water, and when wading deep the Loop ( with tips) system is as long as you would want to have to lift whilst wading deep all day. Other than that, my use of the heads is almost always the inter with a collie dog.

One other note, I also have the Guideline PTs cut at 12.5 m on a Le Cie 15'9 and they seem heavier. In sink 2/3 or denser they overhead cast considerably further than the Loop heads- At least in my limited experience with them so far- It may just be the Le Cie rod that I have not yet tried with the Loop heads.

Sorry if my post was slightly misleading. I only use the Gruebond for the loops. But now you've got me thinking - the Yanks use it as running line. McHardy's of Carlise can supply you with 50lbs gruebond

I find the orange loop line absolutely first class, especially if you clean it during the day.

I look forward to reading how you get on with your experiments. IMO feedback about exactly what S/H's work or not with what rods is absolutely vital info.

Regards

CLaG

[tynetraveller]

I fished last year with viking-in-chief Mikael Frodin and he was definitely using braided mono as his running line. His tactic in high cold water was to search the river by (overhead) casting the shooting heads a mile at a shallow angle downstream, but he was I believe working the fly back to him.

I will give McHardy's a call. I also heard that some scandis are using a new running line- Again mono I believe, by Varivas.

[castlikeaghille]

tynetraveller said:

I fished last year with viking-in-chief Mikael Frodin and he was definitely using braided mono as his running line. His tactic in high cold water was to search the river by (overhead) casting the shooting heads a mile at a shallow angle downstream, but he was I believe working the fly back to him.

I will give McHardy's a call. I also heard that some scandis are using a new running line- Again mono I believe, by Varivas.

Fascinating stuff. Not personally come across Varivas. I guess GB should be less prone to tangling than the Loop (not that it is bad), although you would have thought it should have more air resistance?

We are developing an S/H downstream strategy narrow angle and freeling option for dealing with when you have fish holding tight against the far bank, but you have high fast water between you and the fuishies i.e. where you would have precious little chance to hold the fly over the fish long enough Doing The Malky ;D

I am writing about it in the Presentation and Angle thread I am patching together this week. But if you have more info on what the Viking King himself is up to please do share.

Regardeth

CLaG

[tynetraveller]

I don't think there is much more to describe about Frodin's tactics. He was doing some fairly extreme wading to get to any rock or perch in the river that would allow him to cast shallow and cover the maximum amount of water, and was holding the rod very high and out into the river to keep the running line clear of the water and slow the swing as much as possible. At the end of the swing he would spey cast the line straight out, then pick it up and throw it overhead, sending it out very high indeed to maximise distance. As I said, I believe he was slowly retrieving the fly some of the time, which was on a very short leader of 44lb seaguar!

We were fishing in very cold water (less than 4 degrees C for most of the week) and he believed that the fly needed to be within two feet of the fish to get a take- He didn't think they would move any further than that to take a fly. Once the water reached 5 degrees, he was happy to use lighter sinkers, believing that the fish would be happy to come and get the fly from higher in the water column.

A friend of mine knows Hakan Norling, another top scandi fisher, and he says that he will just read the water and attack a spot he believes might hold a fish from every angle- Starting with a slow pass from a shallow angle downstream, but moving down and attacking it square too, mending up and down etc.- rather than just fishing down the pool in a conventional style.

He wrote an article in trout and salmon a few years back, on the viking fishing style. You can see it here..

www.mattharrisflyfishing.com/articles2.asp?id=30

On viking fly design, the two main tiers, Norling and Frodin have gone down very different routes. Whilst Frodin is advocating his now (in)famous turbo cones, Norling ties wieghted flies with the tungsten cone behind the wing and front hackle, believing that the head of the fly should be as small as humanly possible. If only we knew what the fish thought, or if they cared.

[tynetraveller]

One other point, for spey casting these sinking shooting heads, the snap-t cast is well worth learning. It is remarkably easy to lift the head using this cast.