15' # 10 Sage Z Axis

[petersc]

castlikeaghille said:

The 15' 1" # 10 Sage European was rated by many people as the finest all round carbon double handed salmon rod built to date. Judging by the number of experienced and skilled anglers who fish with them, actions speak louder than words.

Well, to me it still reads like you support the "best in the world" contention, despite the denial.

While we're on the subject of reading properly, I said it was on the bottom of MY list, and that it was a matter of personal preference. I like this rod, you like that rod -- great, no problem. But no "best in the world" stuff, OK?

About the downlocks, we were on the subject of DH rods, not singles. There's been a flurry of "how can I balance my DH rod" posts lately on different boards, and the one thing they all have in common -- uplocks. It's pet peeve of mine so you'll have to forgive me. Reading your comments about turning the rod upside-down to mount the reel, I think you get my drift.

Just to put the "best in the world" comments into context, a little story, and why it gets my knickers in a twist.

In the DVD "The Art of Spey Casting" in the bonus chapters there's a section on an overhead casting competition using a Sage 10161 and a TT Spey line. The three top casters faced off with one of the Syrstad twins hitting 140', Jerry Siem reaching 141' and Tim Rajeff won with a cast of 152'.

A few years ago, I owned a Daiwa Lochmor X 15' 6" 11 wt. -- a dirt cheap rod with low grade fittings and cork. Three of us were casting it overhead in a local park off the grass, using a Delta Long 8/9. We measured out our distances and I think my best was in the mid-to-high 130's while the best of us reached the mid 140's. He would've placed second in that competition using my cheap Daiwa.

Three of the best casters in the world with a "best in the world" rod vs. three nobodies with an el cheapo rod.

Draw your own conclusions . . . .


Incidentally, I thought you wrote a great review except for the first paragraph.

[salmonking]

£710, What a waste of £700,you can get a decent rod for under £400..."ITS NOT THE ROD ITS THE USER" in my opinion there's too much bullsh@t flying around these days....no matter what rod you have,given time with any rod and the correct lines ie.rating,
add a little confidence,you will get used to that rod and get the best from it.

[betanut]

Enjoyed the review and the susbsequent banter

It's unlikey that my meagre finances could warrant buying a £700 rod - except as a kit from a blank up an idea I mentioned elsewhere in tackle talk. So it's interesting to read someoone elses experience with a rod I have a notion to build

Ta

[sinkingtip]

Totally agree Salmonking. I have an AYA non ejector and bring down birds just as well, if not better, as the guy at the next peg to me with his matching pair of Purdey's or Holland & Holland's - by way of a shooting comparison.

[castlikeaghille]

sinkingtip said:

Totally agree Salmonking. I have an AYA non ejector and bring down birds just as well, if not better, as the guy at the next peg to me with his matching pair of Purdey's or Holland & Holland's - by way of a shooting comparison.

Sinky - you are not really suggesting a non-ejector is more fun than an ejector, and on a double gun day too...your poor [loaders] fingers - later fella - CLaG

[speycaster]

your so right there steve the line is the most important of the two i agree sage are overpriced but i think there worth it , not everybody,s cup of tea , i have a scott 15ft , 10/11 on loan and its as good as anything i have ever used but there again my choice of line is the snowbee 2 d of wich i belive is better than most although some think it dosnt like poly tips i dont find thats the case so to me the line is far more important than the rod

[sinkingtip]

Hi CLag - not at all my good friend and on double gun days premature ejection, in moderation, can only be a good thing if not a little messy
Regards as always
STip

[colliedog]

petersc said:

So you think the 10151 is the best rod in the world, dear CLaG? Must not get out much, eh?

On my list of 15 footers, it would be at the bottom -- and I'm a Scandinavian shooting head rod lover -- when I'm not casting a long line. It's all personal preference . . . . even the worst rods have their supporters.

About uplock reel seats on DH rods -- the rational that your hand will loosen off the locking ring of a downlock seat -- where on earth do they think we put our top hands? I'm sorry, but that's just plain dumb. I've never put my top hand anywhere near the locking ring of a DH rod, uplock or down. The only time I've had locking rings loosen or reels fall off, have been with uplock reel seats. Uplocks make it harder to balance a DH rod, you need a brick for a reel, and mounting the reel is a pain as well.

I can't think of one good reason for an uplock on a DH rod. Maybe somebody else can come up with one, but I can't

I'm with Peter on the uplock - it's common sense on a SH rod to hold the reel away from the arm/ground. I suspect that little thought has been given to the DH version. Mind you how ham-fisted do you have to be to have a problem with it?

I'm a fan of the Sage Euro 15-1 - it's by far the best rod I have encountered for my style of casting (which could leave me open to a few digs). I also had a brief shot of the Z-Axis at Stobhall and was left pretty underwhelmed by it. Euro owners need not worry about there being a dramatically better rod on the market. It seemed pretty gutless in comparison to the Euro and I would have little confidence in it digging out a heavy tip and big fly.

It might have grown on me with a longer trial but didn't get the chance - the lads "forgot" to relieve me of my stint in the boat in the afternoon - at least Ernie the ghillie had the foresite to bring along his radio to listen to the Scotland game.

CD

[castlikeaghille]

colliedog said:

petersc said:

So you think the 10151 is the best rod in the world, dear CLaG? Must not get out much, eh?

On my list of 15 footers, it would be at the bottom -- and I'm a Scandinavian shooting head rod lover -- when I'm not casting a long line. It's all personal preference . . . . even the worst rods have their supporters.

About uplock reel seats on DH rods -- the rational that your hand will loosen off the locking ring of a downlock seat -- where on earth do they think we put our top hands? I'm sorry, but that's just plain dumb. I've never put my top hand anywhere near the locking ring of a DH rod, uplock or down. The only time I've had locking rings loosen or reels fall off, have been with uplock reel seats. Uplocks make it harder to balance a DH rod, you need a brick for a reel, and mounting the reel is a pain as well.

I can't think of one good reason for an uplock on a DH rod. Maybe somebody else can come up with one, but I can't

I'm with Peter on the uplock - it's common sense on a SH rod to hold the reel away from the arm/ground. I suspect that little thought has been given to the DH version. Mind you how ham-fisted do you have to be to have a problem with it?

I'm a fan of the Sage Euro 15-1 - it's by far the best rod I have encountered for my style of casting (which could leave me open to a few digs). I also had a brief shot of the Z-Axis at Stobhall and was left pretty underwhelmed by it. Euro owners need not worry about there being a dramatically better rod on the market. It seemed pretty gutless in comparison to the Euro and I would have little confidence in it digging out a heavy tip and big fly.

It might have grown on me with a longer trial but didn't get the chance - the lads "forgot" to relieve me of my stint in the boat in the afternoon - at least Ernie the ghillie had the foresite to bring along his radio to listen to the Scotland game.

CD

I thought it was pretty gutless when I first picked it up. That was the big surprise to me on a more extended trial; it wasn't. It has slightly less heart than the Euro, but slightly more finesse. Still, no particular need for Euro owners to rush out and trade in. Definitely worth further investigation if you are a first time caller in that end of the fast actioned market.

I wondered where you had gone on test? Jammy Dodger was supposed to swap with you. 3 hours of Harling a nearly empty Tay while listening to Scotland play kick and rush...jeez, were you taking prozac to stop yer sel jumpin' overboard? Must be true what they say about the stoic qualities of Collies

Regardez

CLaG

P.S. I can only review the rods I fish with or come across long enough to have a proper trial (which can be a few over the course of a season). I have two others I will post in due course. Would be good if other forum members posted detailed reviews of current range rods/reels/rods they are using or trialing in case people were thinking about buying them.

[scotty]

salmonking said:

£710, What a waste of £700,you can get a decent rod for under £400..."ITS NOT THE ROD ITS THE USER" in my opinion there's too much bullsh@t flying around these days....no matter what rod you have,given time with any rod and the correct lines ie.rating,
add a little confidence,you will get used to that rod and get the best from it.

salmonking, i could not agree more.

sometimes i think it boils bown to plain snobbery, some people like others to know how much there "whatever" cost, i meen who gives a shit what it cost, can they use it?
i have never spent over £300 on a rod and i manage fine, infact my favourite set up is my daiwa whisker 13" teamed up with an airflow 40 plus trout line 9 weight. and it is a dream to use.

scotty ;D

[castlikeaghille]

Thanks to all who took the trouble to respond to this thread. It has been a very mixed bag as ever. In my original review I tried to focus on the rod alone, not its price or what it might be better or worse than other than the rod it was directly replacing.

I have also deliberately not commented on whether the rod represents value or not. The reason for that is because value is a subjective judgment in the eye of the person who chooses to buy or not buy the rod.

It is simplistic and wrong to say people buy rods like this only because they are rich snobs. There are people like that, maybe you know some, but I can't think of many I've fished with in that category (in fact in my experience it is the rich snobs who turn up with the cheapest gear known to man). However, I do know an awful lot of serious salmon and trout fishers who use rods in these price ranges not because they are wealthy, but because they genuinely derive pleasure from using them (however foolhardy that makes them). They make an opportunity cost decision on what they choose to spend their money on. Much like when Arthur Scargill used to be challenged about owning a jag he replied I don't drink or smoke, I spend all my cash on the car.

If you have never used this sort of equipment regularly you are, respectfully, in no position to comment on its subjective value. However, your position not to spend this kind of money is equally valid and fair comment. I simply suggest you think carefully about how you say that. It is not helpful to aggressively express personal opinion about the maximum worth of any rod as a matter of universal objective fact.

Anyway, in the best possible sense, we have read a lot of comment form people who have not actually used the rod. It would be very interesting to hear from someone else who has other than Collie Wuff.

Regardez

CLaG

[pertempledog]

Hey CLaG that was an excellent review - entertaining, informative and I thought well balanced too . I have not used the rod but I have a good friend who through a stroke of sheer excellent luck has just acquired one at a fraction of it's RRP He was trading up from well old technology. I was going to ask him what he thinks of it but I'm going to e-mail him right now and invite him fishing! I'll let you know what I think of it if he lets me have a swish or two.
Incidentally he may now have a Sage but he is the least pretentious, least snobby, most down to earth person you could ever possibly meet!

PT

PS all snobs are a bore - be it ones who are pretending to be better than they are or equally ones who are being ever so 'umble (apologies to Mr Dickens)

[madkeen]

I think we are all in a position to comment on the value of the rod wether we use this equipment regulary or not.Any rod that breaks because we are not speycasting properly isn't worth 70 quid let alone 700.

[castlikeaghille]

madkeen said:

I think we are all in a position to comment on the value of the rod wether we use this equipment regulary or not.Any rod that breaks because we are not speycasting properly isn't worth 70 quid let alone 700.

MadK

Your point would be a fair one except for one small detail. I'm not sure where this stuff about breaking this rod if you can't 'speycast properly' comes from. If you use this rod like an executioner's axe when trying to roll a sunk line to the surface as you can with my CF98 18' clothes pole, and as they still do in parts of the Dark Ages Valley as part of their grace and style movement, then these rods will howl and may break (as, in fact, do many other brands of rod).

However, as I pointed out these rods aren't built for that because times, tackle, technique and bonnet material have moved on light years in the rest of the salmon fishing world except, allegedly, in some parts of the Malt Whiskey Canyon. I've never seen anyone actually break a Sage spey casting whether beginner or advanced caster (although it may well have happened)

My point on value is the marginal utility some people obtain from fishing with premium rods (whether Sage, Carron (!) T&T, Loomis, LTS, Loop, Hardy etc) Cheaper rods may be basically as effective at casting and catching fish, but they are not always, as I think it was pointed out by Steve, as pleasurable to fish with. It's the pleasure to fish with that drives the subjective value. If you have not been exposed to this how can you possibly comment with any insight?

If you take a position that this commodity has no perceived value to you and you won't pay for it then fine, well and good. However, and what I take issue with, is those with clearly no experience, who take this a step further and say because they don't perceive value this then there is no value to anyone.

Hope that clarifies that one

Regardez

CLaG

[speycaster]

it happened to me "" tried a loop quatro tip on my sage 14ft european i was using thei ntermediate tip and it felt heavy then when i tried medium sink i rolled it to the surface then went in to the speycast and bam she broke ,

[williegunn]

castlikeaghille said:

If you use this rod like an executioner's axe when trying to roll a sunk line to the surface as you can with my CF98 18' clothes pole, and as they still do in parts of the Dark Ages Valley as part of their grace and style movement, then these rods will howl and may break (as, in fact, do many other brands of rod).

CLaG

Let me point out that you do not roll cast a sunk line to the surface, you lift the line then reposition the line using a roll cast, then go into a gracefull speycast.

For one who got rid of his Sage after 3 months you certainly defend them.

[petersc]

steve said:

In my experence of fly rods , it's possible to buy a relatively cheap rod that cast as far as an expensive rod , what you should get with a good expensive rod is that nice tactile sensation that good gear provides. IMO lines have the greater influence on distance.

regards

Steve

Steve

I totally agree with you that the better rod should have the better feel. In my own rod collection, I've gone to great lengths (and driven my wife round the bend) buying and selling until I had the "one" that felt just right. But this wasn't the case here.

More over, you would think that the manufacturer running the event would have made sure that the line was ideal for the rod. In my case, I didn't have an overhead line for the 11 wt. so I just grabbed the 8/9 out of the trunk of the car, slapped it on the rod and hoped for the best. I've had two tries with the 10161 and I would never own one.

[castlikeaghille]

williegunn said:

castlikeaghille said:

If you use this rod like an executioner's axe when trying to roll a sunk line to the surface as you can with my CF98 18' clothes pole, and as they still do in parts of the Dark Ages Valley as part of their grace and style movement, then these rods will howl and may break (as, in fact, do many other brands of rod).

CLaG

Let me point out that you do not roll cast a sunk line to the surface, you lift the line then reposition the line using a roll cast, then go into a gracefull speycast.

For one who got rid of his Sage after 3 months you certainly defend them.

WG

Sound advice, shame no-one who fishes/is taught to cast in the Dark Ages Valley appears to follow it

Tisk, tisk. For a man wedded to detail you clearly were not paying your normal level of attention. What makes you think the 15' 1" was the only Sage European I owned? At said time I had 2 x 16' 1" 2 x 14' 1" and 1x 12' 6" European double handers. I traded most of those in when I switched to TCRs last year.

I have fished almost exclusively with Sage double handers for the last nine years. However, courtesy of the Don, Arm and a Leg and other tackle dealers who I fish with, I am lucky enough to try out all sorts of other rods. I've fished with Loomis, Guide Line, T&T, Snowbee, Hardy Angel (pants), B&W, Shakey, Daiwa, Loop, Ron Thompson (!) and even Clan which I thought was just an aromatic pipe tobacco.

Lots of great rods and some clothes poles which you Malt Whiskey Canyon boys like. But, when all's said and done, nothing has ever changed my mind that Sage works for me. They are the only manufacturer that I find consistently do what they say on the tin. The Z Axis is not for me only because I have made all the effort to enjoy my TCRs, and wouldn't go back to a basic fast actioned rod.

As an aside, are you a silver, gold or round bodied Willie Gunn?

Regrdez

CLaG

[speycaster]

i didn't roll it to the surface i lifted it first ,i am well aware of the protocol for using sinking tips /lines, as per text book [AAPGAI] and secondly i didn't say i got rid of my sage sorry if we have got crossed lines here i if that is you are speaking to me ;D ;D your highness

[madkeen]

CLAG
If I was paying 700 for a rod I would expect it to be able to take some abuse.I have never fished with one but thanks to your post(which was very interesting) and others on this forum who no a lot more about rods than me I would never consider one.
Alan