What length of leader??

[sagecaster]

Provoked by another thread really but I thought it may induce a little discussion here:

What could you classify as the optimum leader length relative to particular river conditions when fishing for salmon and grilse?

I have seen fisherman with leaders varying from as short as 3ft to an amazing loch fishing outfit of 22ft! No two fisherman appear to fish with the same length of leader, is it simply an arbitrary guesstimate of what feels right or is there sound fishing science/practical experience behind it?

Personally in Spring/Autumn on intermediate or sunk line I vary from 6 to 9ft depending on pace, height of water and weight of fly.

In summer on floater and fine tips I will push out to 10-12ft sometimes 15ft if water is very clear and the fish lying in shallow runs are easily spooked.

All of this is based on personal past experience, number of wind knots, etc and gut feeling.

Is leader length fundamentally important, does it make any difference in how or even if a fish takes the fly?

[castlikeaghille]

For years random lengths of the nylon "that fools fish" have been used to link fly line to flies on beats all over the country. A lot of salmon being caught on these tug ropes, and no doubt a lot will continue to be. However, we suspect quite a few more might have been caught if people put a bit more thought into their choice of leader; just as most trout and sea trout fishermen would. Piscators might like to consider three factors in determining the length of leader:

1) Presentation of the fly
2) Shyness of fish
3) The Feck it factor

Presentation

The length, and indeed the composition of your cast (strength and choice of leader material) should be dictated by 1, IMO, above all other factors. At one extreme if you are fishing a buoyant fly on a very fast sinking line you might want 2 feet. At the other, we typically use 15 - 17' of tapered fluro carbon for small flies on the floater in order to avoid skating the fly. Fluro carbon presents the fly deeper, and the long leader stops the fly from rising up in the water as the line fishes round. For sink tips and sinking lines we'd normally use 7' of tapered leader to a leader ring with two foot of tippet making 9'. For fishing skated flies and dead drift bombers we'd use 12' of tapered copolymer.

Fish Shyness

We're far more interested in the impact of leader length on presentation of the flee than line shy salmon most of the time. However, since we started using 15' + fluro carbon leaders in summer we have caught more good quality sea trout (3 - 5lbs) in daylight hours than we ever did before.

Oh Feck It - Tangles

There is a direct correlation between long leaders and increased tangles. That correlation becomes more positive the further you try and cast. Turning over a 16' leader with a small conehead on the tail of a two fly cast at 30+ yards in a high wind consistently without tangles borders on the impossible, at least for this caster. So you have to accept higher maintenance as part of the consequences of long leaders. However, if you believe you are presenting the fly better, and are more likely to catch a fish then it becomes worth the effort.

Regardez

CLaG

[colliedog]

Sagecaster,

Personally my leaders range from 4-5' of straight fluorocarbon for sunk line work through to 15-16' tapered fluoro for floating line work

There is more detail on leader set up in the post entitled "More Leader Talk" in Tackle Talk:Lines Leaders and Tippets

CD

[sagecaster]

colliedog said:

Sagecaster,

Personally my leaders range from 4-5' of straight fluorocarbon for sunk line work through to 15-16' tapered fluoro for floating line work

There is more detail on leader set up in the post entitled "More Leader Talk" in Tackle Talk:Lines Leaders and Tippets

CD

Thanks, however I was hoping to hear more of experiences like ClaG's, where having gone to 15ft fluro he's now catching a few hefty sea trout which never happened before. We all learn from gems like this.

This suggests that sea trout are spooked by the fly line and leader, so if STrout are spooked who's to say the salmon aren't as well, hence this really confirms a bit of a hunch of mine, that we should really consider fishing 15ft++ leaders what ever the conditions??

I am convinced that we all "line" fish all too easily without even realising it, ... even in good water levels and have seen fish regularly pushed across or even out of a pool through fishing pressure. I think we would all benefit from fishing longer leaders and a stealthier approach especially in the back end. Of course there will still be the "Feck" factor to reconcile with!

[williegunn]

castlikeaghille said:

1) Presentation of the fly
2) Shyness of fish
3) The Feck it factor

Presentation

The length, and indeed the composition of your cast (strength and choice of leader material) should be dictated by 1, IMO, above all other factors. At one extreme if you are fishing a buoyant fly on a very fast sinking line you might want 2 feet. At the other, we typically use 15 - 17' of tapered fluro carbon for small flies on the floater in order to avoid skating the fly. Fluro carbon presents the fly deeper, and the long leader stops the fly from rising up in the water as the line fishes round. For sink tips and sinking lines we'd normally use 7' of tapered leader to a leader ring with two foot of tippet making 9'. For fishing skated flies and dead drift bombers we'd use 12' of tapered copolymer.

Fish Shyness

We're far more interested in the impact of leader length on presentation of the flee than line shy salmon most of the time. However, since we started using 15' + fluro carbon leaders in summer we have caught more good quality sea trout (3 - 5lbs) in daylight hours than we ever did before.

Oh Feck It - Tangles

There is a direct correlation between long leaders and increased tangles. That correlation becomes more positive the further you try and cast. Turning over a 16' leader with a small conehead on the tail of a two fly cast at 30+ yards in a high wind consistently without tangles borders on the impossible, at least for this caster. So you have to accept higher maintenance as part of the consequences of long leaders. However, if you believe you are presenting the fly better, and are more likely to catch a fish then it becomes worth the effort.

Regardez

CLaG

More complications
One of my best spring days was at Arndilly; I landed 3 and lost 1. I started with about a 3 ft leader and as I routinely retie the hook on after every fish and sometimes change the loop as well it finished at about 17", I watched the head gillie measure it when he thought I was not looking. I was fishing either the Carron intermediate or the IG slow sinker so I needed to keep the tube fly tethered quite close.

In the summer I used to fish 14-15ft tapered leaders, I don’t bother now 10ft or so of 12 or 15lb maxima seems to work unless it is a drought and the fish a potted but these days I would probably sun bathe and fish in the mornings only.

Salmon leader shy I doubt it very much.

[petersc]

I build/select my leaders according to how they behave in the water, not how they behave in the air. The choice between mono or FC depends on their relative sink rates, not their refractive qualities. Leader construction decisions are based on how the pressure of the water will affect leader sinking qualties and as an example, I'll use factory mono 15 footers to exploit their tendency not to sink much when swung in current thanks to their thick butt sections.

Rather than try and explain the entire rational here, I've explained my leader choices in my site home.mountaincable.net/~pcharles/scando-2.html starting from the section on "Importance of Droop".

Since moving to this approach, my catch rate has improved significantly.

[castlikeaghille]

petersc said:

I build/select my leaders according to how they behave in the water, not how they behave in the air. The choice between mono or FC depends on their relative sink rates, not their refractive qualities. Leader construction decisions are based on how the pressure of the water will affect leader sinking qualties and as an example, I'll use factory mono 15 footers to exploit their tendency not to sink much when swung in current thanks to their thick butt sections.

Rather than try and explain the entire rational here, I've explained my leader choices in my site home.mountaincable.net/~pcharles/scando-2.html starting from the section on "Importance of Droop".

Since moving to this approach, my catch rate has improved significantly.

Peter

I like your observations on how the leader impacts presentation, especially the part about deliberate poor turnover which I can do perfectly well without practicing.

I would suggest to forum members you might find following the link above leads (no pun intended) to an interesting read.

Regards

CLaG

[splash]

I'm definitely of the fine and far off school for rivers like the Dee, particularly in low, clear water conditions. The benefits, as previously pointed out by CLaG, translates into more daytime caught sea trout. My floating line set up is normally a 15ft tapered fluorocarbon leader with around 6ft of level tippet water knotted to the end. If a dropper is needed the appropriate tag end can be utilised. I don't particularly like leader rings although others seem to employ them to good efffect. I find that a 20ft leader constructed along these lines is quite easily manageable on a 14 -15ft rod. Fishing Lower Dess this week at 6 inches I took several daytime seatrout and a 4lb brownie on this set up fishing a single size 14 silver stoat. The brownie was caught in shallow water under bright sunlight. Salmon may not be leader shy but when there are so few around its nice to maximise your chances and pick up a few sea trout

cheers

Splash

[macd]

where do you get these tapered leaders. I have been looking through some of the catalogues and have only seen level fluoro etc.

[splash]

macd said:

where do you get these tapered leaders. I have been looking through some of the catalogues and have only seen level fluoro etc.

I've been using the Riverge (fluoro) or Rio (mono) ones. Sportsfish do them. Alternatively, you can use a 10ft polyleader plus a shorter (6-7ft) tip to get a similar type of set up

[sagecaster]

petersc said:

Rather than try and explain the entire rational here, I've explained my leader choices in my site home.mountaincable.net/~pcharles/scando-2.html starting from the section on "Importance of Droop".

Since moving to this approach, my catch rate has improved significantly.

Peter this is excellent stuff, not sure if I agree with all of it, but I like your concept on "droop", makes sense and I suppose it works on a similar principle to down rigging. Far less line disturbance to the pool has to be good.

williegunn said:

Salmon leader shy I doubt it very much.

WG I agree, although I do think in some clear good water height conditions they can be line shy which is as much a presentation issue as leader length one, especially if the line is bellied and the fish is confronted by the line before the fly on sunk line. Its then I do consider using an extra long leader(15ft+).

[petersc]

sagecaster said:

Peter this is excellent stuff, not sure if I agree with all of it, but I like your concept on "droop", makes sense and I suppose it works on a similar principle to down rigging. Far less line disturbance to the pool has to be good.

I'm glad it's of some use. I don't see a great deal of difference in cold water, sunk line presentation between salmon and steelhead, so what I've written here should be equally applicable to both species.

Steelhead don't rise very readily, especially when the water cools, so anything that improves the odds of getting the reluctant takers to have a bite, should improve the catch rate. An aggressive fish is going to take a swipe at anything that swings by -- I believe that the really successful anglers, not only fish in more productive areas, thanks to their knowledge of the water, but that they also employ presentation methods that will entice the reluctant takers as well.

The section on "Calibration" is probably the most important section of my site, for if our gear isn't calibrated properly, the odds of achieving the presentation I described, is pretty well left up to luck.

I've found it very instructive to stand high up on the bank and watch other experienced anglers fish. I've occasionally been surprised to see even the best make some fundamental errors -- errors that they had no idea they were making as they could not see what was happening to their fly as it swung round. They had assumed it was in the best position, but it wasn't even close. Having seen even the best make these errors, it spurred me to seek ways to take the guesswork out of the picture. That's what the "Calibration" section is all about.

My home river is quite large, about 300 km long and about 200 yards wide where I normally fish. All of the steelhead in it are from natural reproduction, there are no steelhead stocking programs on the river. So even though it gets a good sized run of fish, they are so spread out over the system, one fish a day is a good result. Last fall I averaged about one hook-up for every three hours fished -- a fourfold improvement over previous seasons. In past years I've employed these methods on a hit 'n' miss basis, but the past season I employed them with a vengence. It paid off despite our water conditions having been far less than ideal.