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Post by granters on Mar 31, 2007 9:33:51 GMT
Was just reading about how these baits are banned on a lot of rivers. Having only ever fished the fly, and spinning for all of 10 minutes one day last year, i am wondering why? Are they simply too successful? Or are the methods used likely to damage the fish? I met a fishing guide in a pub a few years ago purely coincidentally and he told me that if i ever went to Ireland, he could more or less guarrantee fish on the shrimp and various dyed prawns. I'm just curious about this, as it would be interesting to try and come up with a fly to represent these baits (and not an Ally's shrimp, just puely for my own entertainment!)
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Post by speycaster on Mar 31, 2007 10:21:02 GMT
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Post by granters on Mar 31, 2007 11:07:29 GMT
Thanks speycaster. Looks a good imitation. I've got all this thinskin etc leftover in my box so i was looking for some way to use it in my salmon patterns. Think that sort of idea will be very useful. Much appreciated
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Post by speycaster on Mar 31, 2007 11:50:16 GMT
your welcome  |
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Post by castlikeaghille on Mar 31, 2007 15:52:50 GMT
Was just reading about how these baits are banned on a lot of rivers. Having only ever fished the fly, and spinning for all of 10 minutes one day last year, i am wondering why? Are they simply too successful? Or are the methods used likely to damage the fish? I met a fishing guide in a pub a few years ago purely coincidentally and he told me that if i ever went to Ireland, he could more or less guarrantee fish on the shrimp and various dyed prawns. I'm just curious about this, as it would be interesting to try and come up with a fly to represent these baits (and not an Ally's shrimp, just puely for my own entertainment!) I'd bring back the shrimp (a true art) for the Tay system and ban the worm altogehter. IME 95% of shrimp hooked fish are in the front of the mouth and 95% of worm hooked salmon are down the back of the throat (sorry I don't buy the cut the string and leave the hook in and release arguement). Yes the shrimp can be deadly; but so can all methods on their day. In this day and age where catch and release of a significant part of the bag is common practice on most beats there is no reason from that perspective to ban it. There is a rather more subtle argument on the ban, relating more to prawn than shrimp, which is that a prawn can scare every fish in the pool. Ogelsbey writes about this in his book and I have observed it, but have not seen the shrimp have the same effect. It may be the case, but considering how widespread the use of the shrimp was on the Tay up until it was banned, I'd be surprised if this was a material problem. Regardez CLaG |
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Post by pertempledog on Mar 31, 2007 16:30:29 GMT
Interestingly (well for me at least) when one day fishing for two salmon in a lie that could be observed by Mrs templedog, having had all my offerings firmly ignored I tied on a big Black Francis. The first swim past was ignored. The second saw a ripple of interest along the flank of one fish and on the third they both fled the pool altogether. Should we also ban the Black Francis then???
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Post by castlikeaghille on Mar 31, 2007 18:03:59 GMT
Interestingly (well for me at least) when one day fishing for two salmon in a lie that could be observed by Mrs templedog, having had all my offerings firmly ignored I tied on a big Black Francis. The first swim past was ignored. The second saw a ripple of interest along the flank of one fish and on the third they both fled the pool altogether. Should we also ban the Black Francis then??? The laws of Political Correctness state it is only acceptable to ban the White, Middle Class, Middle Aged Francis....  |
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Post by wilbert on Mar 31, 2007 19:08:52 GMT
The laws of Political Correctness state it is only acceptable to ban the White, Middle Class, Middle Aged Francis....
Good job I spent all day tying black single parent lesbian in wheelchair Francis flies, these are sure to be accepted everywhere.
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Post by castlikeaghille on Mar 31, 2007 19:12:22 GMT
The laws of Political Correctness state it is only acceptable to ban the White, Middle Class, Middle Aged Francis.... Good job I spent all day tying black single parent lesbian in wheelchair Francis flies, these are sure to be accepted everywhere.  ;D ;D |
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sinkingtip
Member
"Steady Johnnie steady"
Posts: 292
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Post by sinkingtip on Apr 1, 2007 13:32:43 GMT
Agree totally regarding the banning of the shrimp V worm debate which, in the right hands, can be as much an art form as fly fishing and can be both deadly and extremely skillful if fished properly and responsibly. For the life of me I still cannot figure out why the TDSFB banned the 'salty one' and not the 'broon highlander' - well actually I can....they had to ban something or at least they had to be seen to make some sort of stance at a time when the whole conservation / catch and release thing really kicked off. Pity that they didn't stop to think that, in the banning of the wee red fella, at the stroke of a pen THEY were guilty of spawning a whole new generation of 'snake' fishers or guys who, previously, were happy to fish a shrimp as opposed to a worm with its obvious mortality consequences. I have to point out at we are taking specifically about dyed in the wool bait fishers who have no real interest in fishing a fly and probably never will of which, on the Tay unfortunately, there are many. Having never fished a prawn, as opposed to a shrimp, I cannot comment on the 'scare' theory although I would imagine that this could very well be the case on smaller rivers with infinitely more sharply defined and smaller pools in comparison to the large 'dubs' of the Tay. From my knowledge, information and first hand experience I believe that the main motivational factor for the TDSFB in the banning of this bait was the size of catches by this method being experienced on the Lower Tay beats during late summer and into the back end. This is at a time where there has always been a decent head of fish in most beats and, as records have shown, have continued to produce these catch figures regardless of the shrimp ban. It is just a pity that, for the less prolific beats (middle + upper) they were deprived of a method which could have saved a blank day for either the individual rod or the beat. Ban the worm !! Restore the wee red fella to its rightful glory !! ...or better still ban both and fish a fly....the deadliest method of all !! |
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Post by greenalert on Apr 1, 2007 14:40:32 GMT
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jock
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Post by jock on Apr 1, 2007 15:39:05 GMT
Why should they be illegal? On the Moy I've seen anglers fish a plastic replica prawn on prawn tackle in a no prawning beat. This is totally legal. Some of them fish illegally......they use the replica to replace the real thing as soon as they see a bailiff  |
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Post by greenalert on Apr 1, 2007 16:23:55 GMT
Hi Jock
I was just wondering because on my season ticket it states prawn or shrimp whether live or artificial is prohibited
Cheers
Graeme
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jock
Member
Posts: 286
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Post by jock on Apr 1, 2007 18:51:09 GMT
Hi Jock I was just wondering because on my season ticket it states prawn or shrimp whether live or artificial is prohibited Cheers Graeme Interesting Graeme. I think you will have to ask your committee, or whoever wrote the rules about that one. Does it mean the Ally's shrimp is banned, indeed are all shrimp and prawn patterns banned? Up until recently my local trout fishing club banned the use of chest waders but allowed thigh waders. The committee were adament.... no chest waders. The interesting bit was the lease from the water board actually banned wading!!!  |
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doublehooked
Member
Ye'l no get anything wi that flee.
Posts: 31
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Post by doublehooked on Apr 6, 2007 19:16:06 GMT
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doublehooked
Member
Ye'l no get anything wi that flee.
Posts: 31
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Post by doublehooked on Apr 6, 2007 19:20:57 GMT
 That's what I tried to do last post. |
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Post by granters on Apr 6, 2007 22:20:54 GMT
That is a great fly. Brilliantly tied. If you had no success on it i guess it shows that movement is everytihng in artificial lures (ie ALL salmon flies ;D! i think this because ther doesn't seem to be a lot of movement in your pattern, but it resembles natural bait. But what do i know. nic
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doublehooked
Member
Ye'l no get anything wi that flee.
Posts: 31
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Post by doublehooked on Apr 14, 2007 0:57:01 GMT
That is what i was trying to do.(Mimic ) As when i fished the shrimp it was fished beneth a float, dead as a doarnail, movement did not have a lot to do with how the salmon saw it.
And then again i have fished pools heaving with fish that would not look at a shrimp but offer a fly to the same fish and you can clean the pool out..
Regards.
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Post by sagecaster on Apr 14, 2007 10:17:31 GMT
As someone who has been there and done it, take it from me we're better off without it. CLaG and sinkingtip do have a point though we're in different times now with C&R so it probably does have a limited place on the vast Tay, but that's it.
The shrimp does have the ability to chase fish out of a pool, I have not seen this first hand, however do I know someone who has,where a shrimp was put into the pool at the head and instantly fish poured out of the tail. I have never seen the same effect done with a fly.
It was renowned as a great tool to get you a fish or two on a difficult week, but some anglers abused the effectiveness of the shrimp, they were mercenary, using it in all conditions and by all accounts making some huge catches of mostly coloured fish especially in the autumn. A good deal of these fish ended up in the fish market I'm sad to say.
Probably the most contentious and fundamental reason that the prawn and shrimp were banned, is that they can be so effective that it gives the impression that the beat has been cleaned out of taking fish, rendering the fishing for the following tenants useless. It was viewed as unsporting and I think thats why the TSDFB banned them. Its not a great feeling facing fishing a week where the previous tenants appeared to leave you an empty river.
Granted the "garden fly" is much worse in terms of C&R, but I'd rather stick with that than return to the dark days of unrestricted use of the prawn and shrimp.
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Post by colliedog on Apr 14, 2007 12:31:32 GMT
I have never personally witnessed salmon reacting extremely to a shrimp or prawn (despite doing a fair bit in the past) but have seen such a reaction to a worm! The background to this may be worth recounting as I think it provides an insight into why salmon occasionally react in this way.
The story goes as follows - west highland river, low water, falls pool full of fresh run grilse clearly visible. A novice salmon angler already has one fish on the bank to the worm and is trying for another. I take up position with the polaroids to watch. Soon after, another grilse takes the worm and is played out. NSA (a sea fisherman) suddenly grabs the line and tries to lift the fish onto the bank with the almost inevitable result (almost, because it somehow had worked for the first fish) of a broken line and lost fish. The fish calmly glides back to its pals as though nothing has happened. 10 min later, NSA is back in position with a new hook and some advice in the finer points of landing a salmon. The worm drifts through the shoal towards the lost fish and all hell breaks loose - the lost fish has seen the worm and bolted - several times round the pool and away - taking all his throughly spooked mates with him.
The point of this observation and other less extreme examples of fish being spooked by seeing flies, lures or lines is that it may be an adverse reaction to some previous bad experience - ie being hooked, jagged, overfished, raked by a line etc. IMO it is not the shrimp per say that causes the problem but the fact that the fish or fishes have come to associate it with danger.
As an aside, very early the following morning I returned to the pool with the flea - the fish were back but not in the mood. However I did find the very recently dead, gut hooked fish from the thin water below the falls - I seem to remember NSA claiming it as his! So whilst I have no objection to the worm, only it in circumstances where the likelihood is the fish can be landed and you are prepared/allowed to kill it! I think the judicious use of the shrimp is far more sporting.
CD
PS Are there still rivers in the UK where shrimping is legal? It would be a nostalgic experience.
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;D ;D
