Hooks/ Fishing depth.

[ibm59]

Ok then. I've just read Rennie's comments about the range of coarse fishing hooks in Salmon fishing from a trout fisher's perspective and I think he really has a point and it's set me thinking.
Lines have a role to play here too , but the weight of the hook and the effect of the style of dressing on depth of fishing are something that is very often overlooked.
I sometimes feel that we take the standard fly dressing hooks too much for granted and don't really think too much about what we're doing.
I'm a firm believer in the heavy( sink rate ) line/ light fly school of thought but would welcome any other thoughts.
Comments? B.

[rennie]

Apply the grey cells imb59 for years carp anglers used single Salmon irons for carp and not with a turle knot.In most forms of angling where presentation is an issue its common to switch to smaller lighter hooks to get better presentation,but in Salmon fishing you go from a heavy weight double to a low water double and its bigger?How many of us on this site have had a properly set hook straighten in a Salmon,how many of us have fished with a chemically sharpened short point micro-barbed non japanned hook,how many of us ask for a Salmon hook in a lighter grade of wire?.I accept the point of fishing in high water for big autumn /spring fish that side of thing appears to be very well cared for indeed,but collectively our presentations seem to be centered around just these circumstances and not much thought applied to other directions.All but one of the 20lb fish I have landed have been on size 14 dressed flies in medium low water,my best Dee fish 18lb bright sunshine size 14 fly,slowly the acquired wisdom is for more mobility in the dressing of our flies,surely that should encompass the hook too.Well its a start eh? Pedro.

[ibm59]

Sorry , Pedro. Grey cells under siege from Mr. Beaujolais at the moment.
I'm perfectly well aware of the cross use of end tackle . Have used various bits and bobs over the years that could have been classed as pike/carp gear and regularly read the coarse fishing press to keep abreast of what they're up to. And in case anyone thinks otherwise , they are way ahead of us in the presentation stakes.
Non japanned hooks? I regularly use Partridge Limerick doubles in 10-14's,Bronze Outpoint doubles and seldom use anything other than Partridge bronze outpoint trebles for use with tubes.
The Limerick doubles in particular are a revelation. Decent gape for shank length and strong wire to boot. Does anyone else feel uncomfortable with the gape/shank length ratio of low water salmon doubles in smaller sizes? I'm going to try Clyderod/Clydebuilt's idea of using Big Mouth doubles this summer.
I've never managed to straighten any type of hook in a salmon fly fishing situation and given the amount of pulling I did this afternoon in an attempt to free a fly from a bush on the opposite bank I think it's very unlikely that I ever will considering that the leader , 19lb bs Seaguar, broke and the fly/hook was retrieved in tact.
I never have used a turtle knot and I don't feel at a disadvantage though no doubt some will disagree.
Agree entirely with the mobility point but think that style of dressing is the main part of the way forward here.
I've seen some lads using the Rapala knot for attatching their flies. Am I alone in worrying about the possibility of damaging the free moving loop on a less than perfectly formed hook eye??
Even on the rare occasions that I spin nowadays , I use a split ring to attatch the lure to the swivel on the end of the mainline.
That loop with the rapala knot just makes me nervous.
I've only ever had one fish over 20lbs and that was on worm a good few years ago. Guess what type of hook I was using?
Regards . B.

[splash]

ibm59 said:

Sorry , Pedro. Grey cells under siege from Mr. Beaujolais at the moment.
I'm perfectly well aware of the cross use of end tackle . Have used various bits and bobs over the years that could have been classed as pike/carp gear and regularly read the coarse fishing press to keep abreast of what they're up to. And in case anyone thinks otherwise , they are way ahead of us in the presentation stakes.
Non japanned hooks? I regularly use Partridge Limerick doubles in 10-14's,Bronze Outpoint doubles and seldom use anything other than Partridge bronze outpoint trebles for use with tubes.
The Limerick doubles in particular are a revelation. Decent gape for shank length and strong wire to boot. Does anyone else feel uncomfortable with the gape/shank length ratio of low water salmon doubles in smaller sizes? I'm going to try Clyderod/Clydebuilt's idea of using Big Mouth doubles this summer.
I've never managed to straighten any type of hook in a salmon fly fishing situation and given the amount of pulling I did this afternoon in an attempt to free a fly from a bush on the opposite bank I think it's very unlikely that I ever will considering that the leader broke , 19lb bs Seaguar, and the fly/hook was retrieved in tact.
I never have used a turtle knot and I don't feel at a disadvantage though no doubt some will disagree.
Agree entirely with the mobility point but think that style of dressing is the main part of the way forward here.
I've seen some lads using the Rapala knot for attatching their flies. Am I alone in worrying about the possibility of damaging the free moving loop on a less than perfectly formed hook eye??
Even on the rare occasions that I spin nowadays , I use a split ring to attatch the lure to the swivel on the end of the mainline.
That loop with the rapala knot just makes me nervous.
I've only ever had one fish over 20lbs and that was on worm a good few years ago. Guess what type of hook I was using?
Regards . B.

Excellent stuff gentlemen. Don't worry about the rapala knot aka the non-slip loop, per se. I have landed bluefin tuna up to 80lb on fly gear using this knot and its 100% safe. I do concede that you are nervous using it on the crap quality hooks that we have to pay a fortune for when dressing salmon flies. Big mouth doubles are good at a third of the price of the Loop doubles and the heavy nymph doubles even better;if only the beggars would make them bigger than size 10. Low water doubles certainly need a bit of finesse and IMO both the Partridge and Ken Sawada ones will bend very easily.....

[severnfisher]

Talking of hooks and how they impact on the way a fly fishes. Isn't the success of the Ally's Shrimp, and of the 1001 long tailed, collar hackled variants, down to the fact that the dressing provides enough lift to keep a quite heavy fly high up in the water? Also it is big enough to fish OK when it is going a bit too fast for a short dressed fly on the same hook size.

Tom

[ibm59]

Without a doubt the long tail is invaluable in keeping a LARGE and perhaps , by association , heavy fly up in the water and it also goes a long way in reducing the " tail down" attitude so common when a heavy fly comes into slower water.
By the way, this "tail down " thing isn't confined to tubes. Check out a standard tying on a large treble or double against a long tail in slow water and you'll see what I mean.