Wee skinny Grilse and late Grilse

[bagoworms]

It's generally accepted on the Tay that the Grilse runs are getting later and later, and that there are lot of small specimens around(12ozs the smallest I've heard of this season, I've heard of loads just over the pound). Even those running to 4-5lbs I've seen seem seriously underweight and skinnier than I remember them back in the days when I had hair.

I've a personal theory that the runs are getting later because the poor wee critturs are trying hard to put on some weight and store up some energy before running the river. They're leaving it to the last minute, trying like anything to get the food they need but there comes a time when they just gotta go, hormones and all that.

There must be loads of theories out there.

What are they?

[fishingd0]

Bagoworms

The grilse on the Ness and many other Northern rivers are in far better form than last year.

Have thought hard about the reasons for the late run over the last year or so and have come up with the following:

Is it that the food is further away, thus taking longer to get back to the river? I find this hard to be the case, being that the shift in pattern took place over one year (2004). I would have imagined such a change to be more gradual.

Is it that the fish are spawning later thus moving the run further forward in the calendar? I know the Ness fish are spawning over a month later then they used to.

Or is it just nature moving things on. Looking back in the history books, many rivers had completely different runs 50, 60, 70 years ago?

Who knows? But it gives plenty of food for thought.

[stuart]

Most of the Dee grilse I've seen this year are in good condition and some are even plump! Certainly much better than last year.

[para1]

Getting simmilar fish here on the Lomond system, one lad had a brace both approx same length but one weighed 3.5lbs and the other 6lbs.
I asked him to check when he gutted them to see if there was anything obvious in the gut, but he said there wasn't.

[bagoworms]

Thanks Stuart and Fishingd0,

That's why I specifically mentioned the Tay since I'd heard that rivers farther north were experiencing better quality, plumper fish. That also probably knocks my food availability theory for six since I would assume that it would affect all Scottish fish, unless they have river-specific feeding grounds which I doubt but don't know for sure (does anyone?). A genetic blip, or just a natural cycle that doesn't fit with our artificial roman calendar? The Tay, Dee and Ness are not exactly a million miles apart so why such a difference?

[rpsalmon]

Fish specific to certain river areas do generally move on slightly different sea currents, it doesn't necessarily take long for them to be separated into different areas of sea with differing temperatures and therefore quantities of plankton, shrimp and fish to eat.

Skinny fish are a worry because it indicates they have had a less than ideal quantity of food to eat, with a greater proportion of small grilse (fit but small) I am concerned there are some salmon populations that may have found merely a basic supply of food at sea yet failed to find areas of abundance in order to pile on the weight. I actually expected such a population crash to happen four or five years ago when the water temperatures beneficial to the base plankton/shrimp were about 500 miles further North than normal, my logic being if the fish find it harder to find food they would not be fit or grow and therefore would be eaten by bigger fish. Sadly with runs of fish not just a week or so late but a month or two months late on some rivers, and for hundreds of years we have been able to time them to the day in the lunar cycle, I suspect that the smaller/fewer/skinny fish are a sign that the salmon (and other fish) on the high seas have generally experienced terrible conditions and that as anglers we may be facing the worst season for years!

That sea trout numbers generally seem to have kept up, really a coastal fish, to me indicates that the problem is on the high seas and is mainly related to climatic and environmental issues.

Since I have even heard serious calls this year, from the "sit on your backside and hope for the best kind of scientists", for cod fishing to be banned I have to wonder how bad things have really got for that kind of scientist to get off their rear ends!

[tweedsider]

Hello bagoworms there have been skinny grilse in the Tweed system this year, as in many other Scottish rivers. Last year was even worse as far as I can gather most people putting the poor quality of grilse down to lack of feeding. What happens offshore is unknown to me but inshore now there are reports of dense mackeral shoals, and where those occur there are sandeels and plankton. Perhaps by the time grilse shoals reach inshore waters it is to late for them to feed up and bulk up body mass after a lack of feed offshore!

[rpsalmon]

Lets hope there hasn't been a collapse at sea, and that the fish are just very late. When we have large numbers of fish still spawning in February, and many summer fish coming in late, it is both interesting and alarming to think of how our fishing may change.

[hornet]

If this now seems to be continuous across all UK rivers regarding the arrival of fish then why are the controlling boards not looking / acting to change season times.

Does anybody know if the UK Fisheries Board are conducting research into why migratory fish are arriving late and in the case of many reported grilse looking fairly lean.

Hornet

[salmonking]

The situation on our local rivers is nowhere near as bad as previous years,,,,ive only seen or heard of a few this year,,
most of the grilse have been in good order.

[tweedsider]

Small grilse are not a new phenomena, I can recall having one of just over the pound in weight from Tweed in the 60s. It was only last year that I first heard of the kelt like grilse, of course they could have been present long before this. Fishing out of BK for 20years 75 -95 was always in close contact with the then buoyant netting industry until it closed in the 80's. The grilse seemed to start in June then and would hit the scales at between 6 & 8lbs. Salmon runs are ever changing, when Tweed spring runs were at their peak some old hands on the river would tell you that Tweed was never a spring river, rather the main runs were in autumn.

[bagoworms]

So there may be something in my lack of food far out to sea theory after all. An abundance of food inshore (tweedsider) may well be too late but perhaps it is enough to make the grilse tarry a little before running into the river thereby explaining later than normal runs?

rpsalmon gives some fascinating information. Does anyone know if this is being investigated by any official body?

[turrifftackle]

We may all be an enlightened lot on here- ---BUT how many general anglers are supporting local trusts, projects and giving money to other Organisations that are there in some way to help the plight of Salmon and Sea-trout ?

From my experience not that many.
Only this morning a discussion was had re-bleeding vents and worms etc and many local anglers were unaware of the situation, let alone any implications it may have at spawning time. Did they care??
All some ranted about was the two fish limit per day and how it should be removed.
They really should be thankful they are allowed that.

However they have no interest in giving a little money to help research or improvement in any way. It is all self, self ,self .

We need to be shouting to everybody and explaining to fellow anglers the situation that is around us.

It does our cause no good to go on the Telly and say how the rivers are better than they were and salmon numbers are back.
They simply are not. From a catch of 16,000 fish to around 5000 today is nothing to be proud of.

The River Boards are trying hard to get Seepa SNH etc to change where they are starting from to look after the future of water in Scotland.

They are starting from the basis that TODAY everything is A1 OK AND IS THE BEST WE HAVE HAD.

Water quality may not be such an issue and chemicals from wherever are monitored but WATER FLOW is an absolute disaster in "normal" years. Over abstraction and over drainage leads to de oxygenation, weed build up and a low flow rate.
Then the rain comes and flash floods occur leading to bank erosion, leakage of chemicals out of the ground and siltation of the river bed leading to loss of spawning grounds.

The trouble is simply red tape with Government or Government sponsored Dept's. Meeting after meeting but no real action.

If we know there is a food problem then why has nothing been done with fish quotas and sand eel fishing ?.
And be very aware of the latest greatest excuse for doing nothing -- CLIMATE CHANGE.

Rant over
Frank

[salmonking]

turrifftackle said:

We may all be an enlightened lot on here- ---BUT how many general anglers are supporting local trusts, projects and giving money to other Organisations that are there in some way to help the plight of Salmon and Sea-trout ?

From my experience not that many.
Only this morning a discussion was had re-bleeding vents and worms etc and many local anglers were unaware of the situation, let alone any implications it may have at spawning time. Did they care??
All some ranted about was the two fish limit per day and how it should be removed.
They really should be thankful they are allowed that.

However they have no interest in giving a little money to help research or improvement in any way. It is all self, self ,self

Rant over
Frank

I was speaking to an older fisherman just the other week,who fished the Don on a regular basis,NOT anymore though,as he was only allowed to take 1 fish for his week,,,he then stated later on in our conversation that he would only take 6 fish for the table in any one season,,,,Who's he trying to kid,,,,i thought ,,,
what's he doing with the rest ,,SELLING THEM??,,,SOME PEOPLE REALLY DO NOT THINK BEFORE THEY OPEN THEIR BLOODY MOUTH

[say]

Good to see that these 'anglers' will NOT be fishing the Don in future, funny how some older gentlemen struggle with the idea of C&R and isn't it ironic that these guys keep telling us that the fishing was always better when they were younger........I wonder why

[salmonking]

Simple really,,,They helped fluk## the runs themselves,sure greed,nothing else to say,,,,i have been beating my head against a brick wall with these guys for years,so much i have almost given up,and their answer usually is, if we don't take them the poachers will,,,maybe a bit truth in what they say,,but so bloody negative. ???I M O,nearly as bad as the poachers themselves.

[bagoworms]

Fellow fishing enthusiasts,

We can, if we really want to, do something to secure the future of the sport we all love, but the key phrase here is "if we really want to". To quote turrifftackle, "We need to be shouting to everybody and explaining to fellow anglers the situation that is around us."

I also refuse to fall into the trap of blaming everything on " climate change" - too facile! Just wait (in fact you don't need to wait, it's being used already and you are paying for it already - anyone here get ther bins emptied every week or pays more road tax for a 4x4?) Is that really about saving our environment, or more to do with money?

Our forebears knew a different kind of fishing and salmon population, in fact here in Fife, there is an ancient law that forbids landowners feeding their tenants and workers salmon more than 3 times a week! And those (obviously plentiful then) salmon came from the smallest part of the Tay system, the Eden. Then was then but now is now. It was different then, for a lot of reasons.

Now is not perfect. Now is nothing like it used to be, but now is all we have since I never met the man or woman who could turn back time. I repeat, if we want to, we can do something to secure the future of our sport. But we can't do that by blaming the past or "sitting on our wallets" or just looking for "great value" whatever that means. This is a great forum but results should come from forum discussion. This string is all about a possible correlation between skinny and late grilse. If food at sea is a problem for our returning salmon, and the river they have to run resembles a muddy, canal-like chemical factory discharge, what part of that can we not influence? But only if we want to.

By the way turriftackle, used some of your "wee Deveron doobles" bought years ago and they still work on both Esks, Isla and Ericht to this day. Miss coming in to see you as often as I once did but you are a fair drive awa' now. To all forum members, there is a couple who run a wee shop in Turriff who stand head and shoulders above any tackle shop I have ever known (in person. 'phone or internet) Try them before e-bay or anything like that, and if you ever get the pleasure to visit in person or speak on the 'phone or fix up some of their fantastic fishing, then you'll know exactly what I mean. An enthusiast's shop run by enthusiasts, not so many of those around nowadays so look after those that remain (does this mean I finally get some discoont)?

[tweedsider]

Fish Whiteadder this morning for 3 grilse, two lean but not skinny at around 3lbs. One had normal vent the other slightly red and distended. Third fish was of normal proportions at 4 -5 lbs with slightly extended and red vent. All fish were silver bars.

[colliekid]

Not sure if this is of any account, but I stay in a cottage owned by a marine scientist . After my last unsuccessful trip to the Dee he proposed these explanations.

1, More effective fishing by the Greenlanders.

2, Salmon need to live in water of a certain temperature range.Apparently the available pool of this at sea is moving further north.

May answer a few question, may not. I pass on his views in good faith.

[bagoworms]

Colliekid,

Thanks for contributing to a topic I personally feel could easily be overlooked - there's obviously something going on that we personally observe but might also overlook on a personal level. There's nothing so insular as a salmon fisher, this kind of forum gives us the chance to share experiences and become far more expansive.

If the temperature zone is moving north, maybe our grilse don't have time to work that out yet 2-3 sea-winter fish eventually get the idea, they get the food they need? Grilse don't have the luxury of time.

I believe we inherit a certain amount of stuff from our parents that we then supplement by our own experiences and learning.

Grilse "passed-on" wisdom may not benefit from a depth of experience? (My dad was a grilse, I'm also a grilse, it runs in the family and he taught me f###-all kind of thing perhaps?)

Interestingly, I've already learned a lot from this string, please keep it coming!