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Post by rpsalmon on Aug 19, 2007 22:51:24 GMT
Dear grahamrobertson
I've caught a salmon on a bare black hook during terribly low water conditions, but that is no reason to use it all the time, or even very often.
We can see patterns in the fish's behavior and habits so why not take advantage of this and fish in a way more likely to catch fish? Learning new techniques and methods is not only fun but fulfilling to the individual.
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Post by grahamrobertson on Aug 20, 2007 11:51:16 GMT
Dear rpsalmon, Don't get me wrong here. I am not saying you shouldn't try different methods or equipment to catch fish when conditions dictate this. My point is that when you are getting takes, you are obviously not to far of the mark with regards to your tackle setup and technique. At this point I personally believe that fate plays a big part in things. As I have said before if you are meant to get him you will. My own opinion is that you can spend all day going over all the if's, but's and maybe's and still be no further on. As long as the fish are showing willing to have a go at the fly/bait/lure it should only be a matter of time before you will be rewarded with your fish. I find personally that the more you think about all of the little details and the more you complicate things the more there is to go wrong. The keep it as simple as possible approach works for me, but each to his own.  |
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Post by salmonking on Aug 21, 2007 20:26:25 GMT
I havent been doing anything different lately,but last nite i connected with 5 fish and lost them all,i had 4 tday but i also lost 4,mostly grilse which are notoriously soft in the mouth,all were given pleanty of time to take the fly ,off the reel,you win some you lose some.
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Post by stuart on Aug 21, 2007 20:33:21 GMT
After loosing 3 out of 4 fish all on for at least 1 min, I preceded to land the next 5 in a row today. Go figure  |
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Post by hornet on Aug 21, 2007 20:37:13 GMT
SK, At least your getting the chance to hook 9 fish  can't be bad. The times that i have hooked and landed grilse have been when using tubes and the double has been fished up instead of down. The hook has stayed firm in the roof of the mouth. More accident than tactics  . Cheers Hornet |
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Post by minitube on Aug 24, 2007 7:34:52 GMT
RP is right about salmon and grilse ejecting the fly. Settled resident fish at any rate. I have seen this on many occasions when ghillying and watching the anglers fly as it passes over fish. Often there is no point in telling the guest that a fish has taken their fly as they would not believe it as there is often no surface disturbance whatsoever. Most often the fish let the fly pass them and then make a large sweeping turn and come up at speed to the fly.
There are many more fish by far that come to a fly for a close look and don't take than do take. Most of these do not make their presence known by surface disturbance though some do as they turn away.
The main factor in solid hooking is the mood of the fish in my opinion (which is most influenced by the weather, water, and other factors like how fresh they are or how settled or are they set on running), then in part the hooking procedure used and then in part the type of hook.
In my experience the best taking ratio will be during a high pressure period. More fish will then take than during low pressure and they will take much better or more decisively than a low pressure period.
On the Moy and other rivers water clarity affects now decisively the fish take, almost any amount of suspended sediment being off putting.
That it is up to the mood of the fish or weather influence is often very clear due to the common experience of many fishers and ghillies up and down the river of losing fish during play on the same day. They will not be doing anything different on the same water fishing over the same fish with the same flies that worked better the day before or that will work very well some days after.
The speed, savagery and violence that a fresh fish can take with if it wishes to is mind blowing. After the fly is taken by the fish turning on its side (hence the silver flash sometimes) and making a side swipe of its head at incredible speed. When the fly is taken the head is shook violently from side to side and the mouth opening and closing at a phenomenal rate, sometimes the whole fish shaking along its body to thrash its head from side to side. At this point it is killing and crushing a creature it thinks it has taken as its predatory sea feeding instinct is played out, and moving the fly back to its throat, hence some flies are practically swallowed at times. The fish does this on the spot and then moves off after stopping shaking its head or keeps moving away as it shakes its head.
Then the line tightens and the fish starts to fight. I have witnessed many many takes on the floating line.
Later with classic greased line style and single hooks it is often a steady rise and interception like a trout taking a nymph.
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Post by rpsalmon on Aug 24, 2007 9:00:48 GMT
It isn’t just my experience that settled or resident fish will eject a fly, any fish can do this. Because the process is so quick it is usually over before you could think, never mind say strike, the best thing you can do is recognise the problem and try to adapt tactics and method for that lie/same conditions next time.
Re the statement concerning violent head shaking, the mouth opening and shutting at a phenomenal rate, and sometimes the whole fish shaking along its body to thrash its head from side to side. I have seen fish take a lure and seem to make a point of “killing it” and even letting go afterwards, but when I compare your descriptions to an ordinary hooking scenario I have to consider such descriptions as “unnecessary body movements and activity”, don’t you think it is more likely that the fish is acting in this way because the hook has caught it in either the tongue, throat (possibly even hooking top and bottom of throat or top/bottom of tongue/roof of mouth?) or gills and the violent reactions are merely a result of this hooking?
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Post by minitube on Aug 24, 2007 16:47:04 GMT
That is a reasonable deduction RP. However personally I believe it is a predatory killing instinct first because the fish then does react violently - but in a different way - when the person tightens the line on it or it tightens the line as it moves away. Also because sometimes there is a stop or a pause in this type of head shaking just before the fish swims away. When it realises it is hooked, or perhaps hooked and being pulled, it really thrashes again but does so not on an even keel, it will tilt over in all directions, even do loop the loops or turn upside down as it thrashes, even beach themselves in panic. Whereas before this the fish stays upright, having righted itself again if initially turning sideways to take.
Also sometimes the whole body does not shake to "kill" the fly and this is related to the size of the fish, small grilse mainly shake the whole body to move the head whereas larger fish shake the head only. However both will shake the whole body and tilt over in all sorts of random directions when they realise they are hooked. I believe the first part is stunning, crushing and placing the fly or gulping the fly further back as would happen a natural creature.
Another thing is that just after a fish is killed - if it is killed, often the muscles or nerves of the mouth can replay the taking of the fly or lure or worm in a snapping / gulping movement of incredible speed and ferocity.
Off to game fair not back for two days.
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Post by rpsalmon on Aug 26, 2007 20:16:46 GMT
Dear minitube
As you have the benefit of seeing the incidents in question it is difficult to question your interpretation as to what happened as regards these large body movements, especially so since you are obviously an intelligent, thinking and experienced angler who has already thought the matter through.
I would still view any large body movements taking place, ie those in excess of that normally performed in the natural feeding process, as a reaction to the hook/lure/drag/anglers actions. I can't immediately put my hands on any evidence for salmon, but with trout (same family/habits/instinct etc) it has certainly been found that they like to ensure whatever they have taken is killed before swallowed and this would involve a bit of head shaking at times. This would support at least part of your conclusions.
In classifying "normal feeding movements" as "natural killing movements" I have to exclude "abnormal feeding movements" as part of the fish's actions after the take as "disproportionate unnatural movements" that are entirely to do with the lure/angler. I can not see why a fish would wish to expend energy unnecessarily and must move on the basis that there is a net benefit in energy expended/obtained in a fish's feeding process, as such the fish would not have any need to shake its body in order to help “kill” the object unless the object it had just taken was larger than it could fit into its mouth or the object was making extraordinary movements in an attempt to resist/escape. Therefore unless we are talking about a salmon taking a large lure then I can not see how strong body shaking movements could be considered natural or necessary. I must view these strong body movements, unless we are talking about salmon in cold water which act differently, as effects of the hook/hooking/angler involvement.
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Post by rpsalmon on Aug 27, 2007 10:29:18 GMT
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Post by minitube on Aug 27, 2007 22:20:08 GMT
Unfortunately I am working on an old apple mac and don't have the latest and greatest technology or broadband for watching the videos on the links.
I would not claim to be anything other than fortunate to have worked on private beats of a very prolific river and seen a lot of fish take guest's flies in low clear water. Many things happen including many follows and rises. Fish swimming along with their eye an inch from the fly inspecting it. I have seen many takes and ejections without any sign to the fisher. At other times the fish open their mouth at the fly without taking it as if they wished to scare it off. I have seen fish take flies with the fish turning belly up, upside down rather than a head and tail so there is a chin, belly and tail. A lot more goes on than the angler ever realises and a lot more fish move to the fly than the angler realises.
Have you ever seen an Atlantic salmon fresh from the sea with its sea teeth still intact? The sight is a revelation as to the exact nature of the fish and its main role at sea. I have seen such fish from Donegal drift nets at Portnoo in Donegal. There are three large interlocking teeth on both top and bottom of the jaw at each side, as well as other gradually smaller teeth. All long and curved back, the fish is transformed in appearance into a ferocious looking killer. In fact its not unlike looking at a barracudas mouth and anyone who sees this never looks at an Atlantic salmon in quite the same way again. These large teeth all fall out before the fish reaches the river and only an occasional drift netted fish still has them.
Due to the way they will attack a fly one ghillie here called them the thug fish. That to me is a good description of their behaviout towards a fly. The times when the fly is literally placed down the throat of the fish despite the line in the current and resistance of the line and rod is to me evidence of the savagery of the take that put it there either during or after through the head shaking and gulping.
For me there are two stages, a non alarmed fish giving a thug like attack to the fly using extreme violence, speed and agility though in control of its poition in the water, i.e. remaining upright. Then an alarmed fish reacting wildly and erratically to being hooked.
Of course I can not be sure but I believe from what I have observed and from the nature of the fish as a predator / savage killer, that the predatory killing instint is so strong that it is played out automatically and that this is what often happens initially with fresh fish taking a fly. Even when we can't see the fish we can often feel many sharp jolts on the line as a fish takes.
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Post by rpsalmon on Aug 27, 2007 22:56:12 GMT
Have not seen a salmon with normal/sea teeth in person, only pictures of their mouth. I did see the mounted bone structure of a 3 foot salmon which showed the teeth rather too well, horrifying!
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Post by finney on Sept 11, 2007 19:29:35 GMT
I have fished all my life (46 years) held a rod for 42 of them. Fished with minitube recently. He knows his stuff. If it wasnt for his advice recently I am sure I would have blanked having stuck to my own principles.
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Post by salmoseeker on Sept 12, 2007 18:49:34 GMT
As jkboy said earlier it is much to do with your Donald. But, I've had the odd day when I've lost a few fish but I suspect they'd been around a bit. Get a fresh fish and I think they will more often take the fly with much greater confidence.
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can't be bad. 
.