In defence of bait fishing

[severnfisher]

First salmon I ever caught was on the fly. I love fly fishing. But isn't there something missing from this site?

Why is there no discussion of the techniques and tactics involved in bait fishing?

Are people who do a bit of worm, shrimp or prawn fishing intimidated by the fly only ethos ?

I suspect so.

Anyway how about some discussion of the tactics of bait fishing?


Lobs versus dendras
braid or mono for shrimp?
walking sticks or rolling bullets?





Or perhaps we could look at some of the wider issues like is bait fishing compatible with catch and release?

Tom

[scottyjock]

Whilst mostly fishing the fly myself when i can there are some places where i fish that are impossible to fish with fly & almost impossible to fish with spinner.

Springer... the examples you give above are inexcusable & are to be found on most club waters i know of also.
The real debate on this should be on etiquete on the riverbank,
i see no problem with fishing methods other than fly when conditions suit & rules allow.

A step per cast rule is adviseable when fishing any method for migratory fish but this is very rarely followed on club waters .



scottyjock

[wilbert]

Not a big fan of shrimping but have no problem with worm fishing if its done properly and in the right conditions (wrong for the fly). I probably fish the worm 2 or 3 times a year max and only on a dirty flood and never give a fish line when it takes so as not to gut hook the fish. Ok I loose a few fish by hitting them straight away but the ones I get are lip hooked and easily returned just as with the fly. Horses for courses but my preferred method is the fly by far just wish I had the water conditions to fish it every day I want to go fishing but most of my days off are spent praying for rain.

[hadrian]

to each their own,as long as its legal an fellow anglers are respected then in my opinion it should have just as much a place on this salmon fishing forum as any other method ,to ostracize a fellow fisherman because of his method in my eyes is wrong,education is king in all aspects of salmon fishing,we can all learn from each other.

hadrian.

[hadrian]

hi springer,your comments on sportsmanship regarding prawn/shrimp interest me,where, in your opinion does the line between sporting and unsporting get crossed regarding bait/lures etc and why?

thanks,
hadrian.

[rennie]

Have to disagree there but only slightly Springer,personally I love to fish the fly above all else,but I find its the person who is unsporting not the method.We all know of plenty of places where you haven't a hope in hell of success with a fly,spin/shrimp/bait is often the only viable way of fishing,certainly good catches are taken like this but just look at some of the more exclusive fly only beats,excellent catches to the fly ,but thats why we would all like to fish there.There is a lot more than chuck it and chance it to any method of Salmon fishing,if your water isn't suitable for the fly what would you do and I accept beating a challenge is a real rush,I will occasionally pick up a spinning rod sometimes out of choice,but bait well I can do that to my hearts content for coarse fish although spent a couple of days on the Welsh Cothi crawling about poking a rod and a worm where you cant stand it was good fun,not the fish mongering method that may be imagined,certainly needed the talents of the grey matter.If the fly lights your fire good luck I cant fault you but tell you what ,fish the dub of Hagg Bank for a full season fly only (not the streamy run out) and see if your love with the fly stays as strong?.By the way saw an interesting method the other day,the Mouse fished on a spinning rod at night for Sea Trout (probably coz it was too big for the fly rod) which camp does that fall into?,still bloody good fun though,sort of think thats what its all about. Pedro.

[hadrian]

hi springer,may i ask you why lure or spinner is fine by you,its as easy to foul hook a fish with a weighted devon for example as it is with prawn or shrimp.you said "the less said about bait fishing the better on this forum"ask yourself this question,is it the method or is it the way the method is fished,in other words is it the angler using the method?if it is the latter then surely healthy debate on a forum like this can only help,while there is a them and us situation progress will always be slow,as i said in a previous post we can all learn from each other,lets hope that natural progression continues and the small amount of anglers still using bad practices whilst fishing all legal methods are educated/instructed and helped to make the sport we enjoy and love even more pleasurable in the future,and after all your last sentence suggests to me that you believe the number of salmon anglers that bait fish is very low.if this is the case,the number of anglers you describe as " bait boys"is lower again.

tight lines,
hadrian.

[betanut]

In my view the enlightened angler will have taken the time to try all aspects of his/her sport and settled on the one or two methods that suits him/her best. Exposure to other tactics leaves an appreciation of other anglers skills with methods our enlightened anglers choose not to employ.
I was brought up on west coast of Scotland lochs and spate rivers, sometimes on the rivers a worm was the only way to go so I fished the worm. I've never used shrimp or prawn (but I appreciate the skill) but I do spin, on occasion, for Salmon even today - I probably go trolling for them more than spinning to be honest, another topic not really touched on here.
Key thing for me is the the amount of time I devote to methods other than fly fishing - the answer is very little.
Increasingly the bias around the country is C&R - frankly the anglers of a generation ago would probably shake their heads at fish being returned. Fly fishing is very much seen as the method of choice for C&R but there are some pretty poor excuses for Salmon fly fishers out there and the same applies to anglers who employ other methods in pursuit of our common quarry, we are all entitled to our views but fly fishing and bait fishing really aren't all that different - and we are all anglers.
Live and let live I say ;D

[severnfisher]

Springer,

I fish on the river Severn so the type of bait angler you describe is sadly a pretty familiar figure. I also share your feelings about the behaviour you describe.

However, as has been said it is the angler not the method that is unsporting. And there has to be some sort of accounting for the differing nature of rivers and their runs.

I don't know enough about the Tyne to comment on it specifically, but would say where there is enough fly water available of an open access kind (not just a few exclusive beats) then I for one could justify closing certain sanctuary areas to fishing.

But on other rivers the situation is very different. Take the Severn and Teme for example. Most of the holding water is not suited to fly fishing - though more of it is fishable that way than a lot of people think. In these circumstances to ban bait fishing is to effectively ban salmon angling on 90% of the river.

I think there is actually a role for this website in promoting forms of bait fishing that are compatible with catch and release, or that at least give anglers the option of putting fish back.

As for foulhooking. There are a few methods of fishing the fly that are as likely to lead to foul hooking as shrimping. Weighted fly on fast sink lines, Sunray Shadow type flies stripped fast on a sinker to name two. Spinning IMHO beats bait fishing for the danger of foulhooking by a long way.

One last point. The etiquette question. On a lot of 'bait water' the disturbance caused by the use of the fly rod - especially the double hander and spey casting - will disturb everybody else's sport if you fish through a pool. Even if it doesn't spook the fish much it will spook the bait anglers. That is why if I want to use the fly I pitch up as the colours are going and if the water is low fish a single hander. The bait boys are all in the pub, but the fish may well be on the fin.

However in other circumstances - if i want to fish the Teme in worcestershire for instance - then it is bait fishing or bust on the stretches I have access to.

Tom

[hodge]

Hi all
As severnfisher says, it sometimes depends on the type of water you are fishing.
I fish the Hampshire Avon and fish the fly for as long as possible - with the current weed growth until about the end of May/early June. After this time the river is just too weedy to fish the fly and the spinner is fairly restricted also.
I do fish the weighted nymph during the summer months, aswell as the shrimp.
I must say that I have never foul-hooked a salmon whilst fishing the shrimp and most of my shrimp fishing is done by sightfishing.
Another restriction on the Avon is the number of coarse anglers - quite often most salmon lies are occupied by the barbel fishermen.
All our salmon fishing on the Avon is also 100% catch and release.
In conclusion, I enjoy all methods and would fish the fly above all, but in some situations you have to adapt and fish the method that suits the water.

[salmosalar25lb]

In my mind bait fishing is ok if all else fails, the type of hook used is the problem though.
If a fish is returned with the hook left in you have in effect signed it's death warrant, it will die a slow and painful death.
On the River Camel, we have as a club decided that after the Sea trout season is over anyone worming must use circle hooks not J hooks.
We have been running our own hatchery for the past 7 years, all stock fish (at the request of the E.A) must be caught by rod and line, we have found that donated fish that have been caught with worm and the hook left in them have died after 2/3 weeks, fish caught by spinner or fly have been successfully stripped and returned to the river in good health.
So if you want to bait fish for Salmon try circle hooks and give the fish a chance (if returned)to go on and spawn

[Fruin]

I never bait fish anymore. I am not completely opposed to it, but just find that it is not a method that agrees with my morals, especially harrassing fish in low water. Everybody that is pro bait angling seems to be trying to justify it by making excuses about conditions, or accessibility.

Things that annoy me about allowing it to continue...
I have never seen a bait fisher return a fish.
I often have to 'force' my way through a pool to get past bait fishers hogging the known lies.

The only advantage that I see to bait fishing is the appeal to junior salmon anglers new to the sport. They can fish with their friends while only half concentrating and start to get an appreciation for the sport from there.

If catching fish is the single most important aspect of your fishing, then go to a stocked trout pond, or throw some mackrel feathers over the side of a boat.

If all else fails, including bait fishing, you could maybe try dragging a net through the pool and see if you can get a fish thay way!!!

[hadrian]

hi fruin,you mention the problems with bait fishers,you don't mention the problem with the method,surely if most bait methods are fished in a way that takes into consideration the feelings of other anglers and the salmon,then there is little difference in practice i.e.,to methodically work a shrimp,prawn or worm is from what i know is a skill in itself,as long as the angler respects fellow anglers and uses legal means, is it really such a problem.

your final sentence in my opinion should have read,if all else fails,try the fly,you might get a fish that way,but if you don't you don't,you will have an excellent time trying.

hadrian.

[severnfisher]

Everybody that is pro bait angling seems to be trying to justify it by making excuses about conditions, or accessibility.

Fruin,

I enjoy your posts very much, but reluctantly I have to take issue with this.

There are excuses and there are explanations.

It is the topography of the pools and the nature of the river banks that makes bait fishing a sensible tactic on some of the rivers I fish.

Some of this could actually be alleviated by river bank management, but it isn't going to happen because a lot of the overhanging trees etc are considered vital fish holding features by the coarse anglers who make up the big majority (99%) of those who fish the Teme and Middle Severn. We are not talking obstructions that can be negotiated by a bit of deep wading and speycasting either.

I think there is a danger of making the equation bait fishing = killing.

It is quite possible to bait fish whithout deep hooking and release salmon unharmed. Also plenty of fly anglers still kill too many salmon.

Tom

[Fruin]

Hadrian,

I agree that the problem is largely with the people that choose to bait fish above all other methods, but this is always the problem and I don't see it changing. The other problem, as already mentioned, is the gut hooking of Salmon and Sea Trout... and brown trout... eh, and parr, eh... and smolts, and anything else living in the water that is likely to be attracted to the bait being fished.

I ocassionally spin, but prefer to fish the fly. This is not through any snobbery, as I grew up fishing all three methods on my local river. If fish seem very thin on the ground, enjoyment can be had from practicing casting a fly rod, mending the line, and general experimentation.

I also enjoy the challenge of fishing the fly in less than perfect conditions, more than I enjoy upstream or downstream spinning.

I never bait fish, as I do not think it is compatible with catch and release.

[hadrian]

hi fruin,i think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one,i think your making the connection between people who call themselves anglers but do everything they can to cheat a fish out,and bait fishing.bait methods are probably the best disguise for these people to do exactly that CHEAT.if we were all told tomorrow,from now on boys its fly only,the cheats would still find a way of bending the rules.however,there are many more fair bait anglers than cheats and i know for sure on a small river near me where shrimping, prawning and worming once ruled among most anglers,things are changing quickly,bait fishers are picking up fly rods and having a go, learning the casts,asking the questions, and getting,in their own words,much more from their fishing,the initial comments in previous posts of bait fishing and bait fishermen having no place on this website in my opinion were wrong.as for the c+r thing,i have no evidence,but i think there will be at least as many salmon foul hooked as a result of spinning as any other legal method.

hadrian.

[Fruin]

Hadrian and Severnfisher,

I am sorry if I have caused any offence, I was just voicing opinion based on my experiences and fully agree that there are many considerate bait fishers on our rivers.

When my boys are old enough to be trusted by the river, I will be starting them off with the worm, maggot, and grub. I used to love fishing with bait when I was younger, but my fishing was concentrated on bait fishing holding pools.

However, in my experience, as already mentioned, I have yet to see a bait fisher returning a fish. That is not to say that I have never met a fishmongering fly-fisher

[hadrian]

hi fruin,no offence taken at all,im only happy to read your opinions,its the very thing there isnt enough of on this forum,too many people log in and view the opinions of others but for reasons only they know, feel unable or unwilling to voice their own opinions,often theres no right or wrong its just a matter of opinion.

thanks.
hadrian.

[shrimpin]

there is as much skill in worm fishing as there is in fly fishing! many fly fishermen i know even say, some worm fishermen may be the most skilled of them all, see 5 years ago i found it hard to catch one on the worm, now i know alot about fishing the worm and every year i get fish on them even in rivers with very low salmon count.

[speycaster]

worm fishing is an art in it self to many people just chuck it out and hope ,worm fishing on the fly line is a very rewading way to take salmon and seatrout i use asinking line or an itermediate myself just pay the line out and feel the worm bounce on the bottom the movement is much more natural