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Post by exerod on Jun 25, 2007 7:46:58 GMT
Who?  Anyway I was fishing with a guy yesterday who waggled his rod up and down while the spinner came round. I know this is a common practice with the fly I've never seen anyone doing it with spinner. My first thought was that the erratic movement would put fish off but then again fish take erratically wobbling plugs and sp0ons and in pike fishing you'd never spin with a steady unbroken retrieve. So any successful rod wagglers out there? Andy |
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Post by castlikeaghille on Jun 25, 2007 18:02:35 GMT
Who? Anyway I was fishing with a guy yesterday who waggled his rod up and down while the spinner came round. I know this is a common practice with the fly I've never seen anyone doing it with spinner. My first thought was that the erratic movement would put fish off but then again fish take erratically wobbling plugs and sp0ons and in pike fishing you'd never spin with a steady unbroken retrieve. So any successful rod wagglers out there? Andy Would have thought this a much harder skill to maintain an effective sink and draw action with a spinning bait. When you create slack in a spinning bait there will be a longer time lag to when the line and bait are taught again than fly line to flee. Also, unlike a flee (or snake for that matter) a sinking spinning bait has very little action about it on the "sink". It is the bait having tension (and thus resistance) from the line that causes a devon to rotate, a flying c blade to spin and a spoon to wobble. However, very interested to hear from anyone who has a new trick up their sleeve that they should like to share. Regardez CLaG |
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Post by castlikeaghille on Jun 25, 2007 18:05:12 GMT
Who? Anyway I was fishing with a guy yesterday who waggled his rod up and down while the spinner came round. I know this is a common practice with the fly I've never seen anyone doing it with spinner. My first thought was that the erratic movement would put fish off but then again fish take erratically wobbling plugs and sp0ons and in pike fishing you'd never spin with a steady unbroken retrieve. So any successful rod wagglers out there? Andy Would have thought this a much harder skill to maintain an effective sink and draw action with a spinning bait. When you create slack in a spinning bait there will be a longer time lag to when the line and bait are taught again than fly line to flee. Also, unlike a flee (or snake for that matter) a sinking spinning bait has very little action about it on the "sink". It is the bait having tension (and thus resistance) from the line that causes a devon to rotate, a flying c blade to spin and a sthingy to wobble. However, very interested to hear from anyone who has a new trick up their sleeve that they should like to share. Regardez CLaG Why, moderators do tell if you know, is the word spo*n considered so offensive as to be on the auto censor?!   |
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Post by castlikeaghille on Jun 25, 2007 21:12:56 GMT
Why, moderators do tell if you know, is the word spo*n considered so offensive as to be on the auto censor?! It must be an American thing. The practice of wiggling the rod tip while spinning is widely practiced on the Ythan estuary at Newburgh but it does seem to result in a significant amount of fish being foul hooked. It is usually used along with a couple of Terror flies below a Wye lead rather than a spinner. Thanks GR - what they are doing on the Ythan makes sense. I've always understood flee on the spinning rod to be a popular tactic in the Greater Abba and £20 a pint beer continent. Giving it the Coupar Grange wiggle is understandable in those circs. I'm still not sure how a sink and draw Toby is effective. I can see it on the floating rapalla where you stop winding and the bait rises. Suddenly cranking down causing the bait to act like a U-Boat having just spotted a Sunderland can induce a response from a chasing fuish. Any other observations? Regardeth CLaG |
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Post by scotty on Jun 26, 2007 14:24:51 GMT
hi guys, in my experience of spinning to move the rod is a bad thing to do, i have tried this years ago only to miss out on taking fish as they turn away at the last moment (the waters i fish are pretty small so you can see alot), i find to vary the speed at which you wind is better as long as the difference between one speed and the next is not to sudden.
scotty.
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Post by colliedog on Jun 26, 2007 22:56:30 GMT
I'm still not sure how a sink and draw Toby is effective. I can see it on the floating rapalla where you stop winding and the bait rises. Suddenly cranking down causing the bait to act like a U-Boat having just spotted a Sunderland can induce a response from a chasing fuish. Any other observations? Regardeth CLaG A common retieve when fly fishing for trout and salmon in still or slow moving water is to strip in a stop start motion. I don't see why the same should not apply to a spun lure. A toby, spoon or even the blade of a flying C will flutter as it sinks so it is not entirely dead - witness the occasional grilse hitting a heavy flying C on the drop in the Ledges. A sink and draw action with almost any type of lure can obtain a reaction from predatory fish, probably due the imitation of sick or injured prey fish. However to assume this reaction from salmon would be to assume that the motive for the take is a predatory reaction - far from certain. My experience is that working the lure like this has no benefit although this does not mean that this is always the case - I have not experimented sufficiently to come to any firm conclusions. Finally, I suspect that in reality, simply waggling the rod tip will have little effect upon imparting movement to the bait because most of the movement is damped by the flex of the rod and stretch of the line. This is the very reason that pike fishers use short very stiff rods and heavy non stretch braids to impart subtle movements in to jerk-baits (that plus the fact that these lures can weigh up to 4oz or more). I think a bit more welly than waggle would be required. CD |
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Post by castlikeaghille on Jun 27, 2007 10:05:40 GMT
I'm still not sure how a sink and draw Toby is effective. I can see it on the floating rapalla where you stop winding and the bait rises. Suddenly cranking down causing the bait to act like a U-Boat having just spotted a Sunderland can induce a response from a chasing fuish. Any other observations? Regardeth CLaG A common retieve when fly fishing for trout and salmon in still or slow moving water is to strip in a stop start motion. I don't see why the same should not apply to a spun lure. A toby, sthingy or even the blade of a flying C will flutter as it sinks so it is not entirely dead - witness the occasional grilse hitting a heavy flying C on the drop in the Ledges. A sink and draw action with almost any type of lure can obtain a reaction from predatory fish, probably due the imitation of sick or injured prey fish. However to assume this reaction from salmon would be to assume that the motive for the take is a predatory reaction - far from certain. My experience is that working the lure like this has no benefit although this does not mean that this is always the case - I have not experimented sufficiently to come to any firm conclusions. Finally, I suspect that in reality, simply waggling the rod tip will have little effect upon imparting movement to the bait because most of the movement is damped by the flex of the rod and stretch of the line. This is the very reason that pike fishers use short very stiff rods and heavy non stretch braids to impart subtle movements in to jerk-baits (that plus the fact that these lures can weigh up to 4oz or more). I think a bit more welly than waggle would be required. CD Stopping a moving spinning bait and then starting it again is a great way to induce a salmon take. However, I don't see that as the same as sink and draw with a flee rod effect that you get waggling it as they do on a lot of Lower Canal Beat Dubs and also GFC, which is, I think what is being talked about here. Such a tactic causes the fly dressing to have additional movement on both the sink and draw, and is the whole basis of the success of the dog nobbler - which can be as deadly for salmon and sea trout as stockie rainbows  Using this sort of fly I can't say I've noticed any particular difference between the number of takes on either sink or draw. I definitely have not had the same experince with spinning baits. I agree you get some movement with cutlery on the drop, but it tends to be hardly noticable, especially with the heavier baits in a very slow flow. So far I've not had a salmon offer on the drop (but who knows what's round the next pool corner). The ones from the Badlands of B, Ledges, J's B and Snaggy were either on the first two or three cranks of the handle after the drop or right under the rod tip at the end of a chase. All you flee only guys don't know what yer missin' seeing a salmon into the teens of pounds come hurtling in after your lure....and if it does take under yer rod tip...mayhem  Regardez CLaG |
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Post by exerod on Jul 1, 2007 13:53:03 GMT
The rod waggling I saw was indeed a fairly gentle affair that would only impart a bit of a waver into the retrieve. I think I'd sooner concentrate on getting a bit of a curve into the path of the spinner. i find to vary the speed at which you wind is better as long as the difference between one speed and the next is not to sudden. scotty. Scotty do you speed up or slow down if you see a fish following. I nearly always spin upstream and with sea trout it seems that a speeding up helps sometimes but I never know what to do for the best with salmon so I just keep going and hope Andy |
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Post by scotty on Jul 1, 2007 15:35:27 GMT
exerod, i usually speed up a little by winding, also swing your rod so as not to adjust the speed but just to change the direction of your lure. works for me ..........sometimes scotty. |
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Using this sort of fly I can't say I've noticed any particular difference between the number of takes on either sink or draw.