Fishing at dawn

[betanut]

Interesting stuff chaps..... to be honest (and answering the initial question) same patterns but in my experience you can get away with a slightly larger fly 'early on' - say a 8 rather than a 12 for example.

But then you get onto the whole when to fish and what is and is not perceived as acceptable.....
To be honest I think you have a split here between sizes and types of river. On the big East Coast rivers there is a culture of a fixed regime, one starts at 9 and one finishes at 5 when the Ghillie goes home, unless invited to do otherwise by Ghillie or proprietor. When I was a Ghillie (several moons ago now) my view was (and remains) that whilst I was expected to work 9am-5:30pm my personal view was that the punters (sorry, clients) have paid to fish then they get to do so when they wanted - they are footing the bill. I would freely go out for an all nighter on the river if that's what they wanted - so long as my hours were worked the boss was happy, so long as the clients were happy I was happy and so on. Mind you, I was young and single back then. Can't imagine that would go down well now......
No point in flogging water in bright summery conditions, we all know that it is rarely productive so why bother? OK, it's not for long (British summers and all that) but I always felt that it was my job to go the extra 'mile'.
However, not all beats operate the same and times change. Increasingly rods may be fishing the same beat with anglers they have never met before so perhaps my rose tinted spectacled retrospective on what has been doesn't fully reflect what Willie Gunn & Kercock know as current.
But this I do know, I work hard to make sure I have an angling budget for a season so I'm with Wilbert - to an extent (particularly on Ghillie-less water) I expect to fish when I want if I've paid for it ;D
Is that unreasonable?

[acw]

Someone said me that flies with some blue on it could work better at dawn..
Purple and silvery pearly ,is my recipe!

[imb]

Did somebody mention birds,i'm all for it!

[rennie]

Oh dear Dennis,hows the bullet hole in your foot,demand to fish early?your words not mine and as for fishing all the water before the bedheads are up and about well no you fish within your alloted pool rotation don't you?.Never had a problem with a request to fish early even the three years running I fished at Kerkock in fact I am usually positively encouraged to do so (fished as a fully paid weekly rod by the way),oh and I always come to grief without the attentions of a ghillie where questions of safety are concerned even if he has nipped off for a quick five minutes for whatever reason.Also prey do tell whats the difference between some one fishing their alloted pool early and catching a fish and some one fishing their pool 9 to 5 catching a fish in the morning and then leaving the pool at lunch time for some one else to fish in the afternoon apart from two happy anglers one of whom is a bit tired nothing. In the days of the Upper/Lower Kerkock beats seem to recall on change over days a certain person encouraging their rods to be about early so they could give the Gean Tree a good going over with the shrimp,Kettle/pot, pot/kettle.As for a ghillie who said I didn't want one? you thats who the only ghillie I don't want is one who fishes the pools before you or who likes the bottle more than his/her job,or even the one who doesn't encourage their rods to catch fish.As for there being more to fishing than catching fish W.Gunn well go do something else then,I fish to catch a fish it costs enough I want to maximize my chances, conditions may not be favorable so I will have to work for my success.Wish I could fish at the drop of a hat in better places than I do ,but I cant so I get on with it,when I have caught as many fish as you from the places you have then I might become blase about it too,but thinking about it I wont because I enjoy it so much and to the point I wouldn't want to spoil some one Else's enjoyment of their sport either, if they are too lazy or drunk to get on with things then fine but I am not. Pedro.

[wilbert]

Rennie (Pedro) Well said. You speak my mind.

[corky]

salmon dont work 9to five ,it goes without saying neither should we when fishing for them ,

[kercock]

rennie ,I ,in fact said, IF you were demanding to fish early,I also have no problemwith some one fishing their allocated part of the beat provided the rest of the anglers agree to it.In the past, I have been at the beat from 6am till 9pm and I never leave the beat at 5pm(well,mayby Jan/Feb)rarely before 6.30pm I agree with betanut on many of his points,not the all nighter bit though.
Shrimps,where did that come from ? As for hole in the foot.it seems to me most of your last post came from a hole a bit higher up than your you foot. nuff said

[williegunn]

rennie said:

As for there being more to fishing than catching fish W.Gunn well go do something else then,I fish to catch a fish it costs enough I want to maximize my chances, conditions may not be favorable so I will have to work for my success. Pedro.

Pedro,
There is more to fishing than catching fish.
I tend to get a lot of invites to fish prime water, prime time, I have learnt that you do not get asked back if you fish the beat before 9 sleep all day and fish again at night.
You really should relax and go with the flow, if the party only want to fish after 9 in the morning I can klive with that.

On the other hand when Graham asks me to fish the Deveron with him, I'm there at 4.00am with the rest of the party and off the river at 9.

As I keep saying there is more to fishing than catching fish

[wilbert]

Malcolm when you say that you get lots of invites to fish prime beats at prime times does this mean that you are not paying for the fishing or are getting it at mates rates?? if this is the case then I can see why you are more than happy to take it easy.

[williegunn]

Yes

[Fruin]

Yes, fishing early/late most definitely has it's merits.
No, it is definitely not fair to do so if the rest of the people fishing the same beat, on the same day, have not agreed to it.
If you want to fish early, ask before you book the beat. Surely, that's just common sense.
The problem is that as the sun is making more than a fleeting appearance, the heat is rising, and the river is dropping, a lot of people want to fish early. However, fish are not running as hard and there are likely to be less takers in the pools. In these circumstances, it would be unfair for one of the rods to show up early and fish all the pools, perhaps catching the only fish likely to take a fly.
For some anglers that like to fish early, it has more to do with getting through the water before other anglers than it has to do with the conditions. It's nice to be first down a pool, but it's also nice to show manners and consideration for others.
Rennie, it is by agreement by the ghillie and the rods, where and when they fish, as it is his job to try and please all the guests, not just the desperados.

[rennie]

Oooh, touchy eh gents,well if you cant hack it don't yack it ,as far as shrimps go Dennis look in the mirror ,selective memory eh?,sorry W.Gunn but if my best chance of a fish is to put the hours in then I will,not interested in the corporate thingy or entertaining in the hut,I am an angler,only had two invites to fish on hallowed ground and I didn't disgrace myself both times performing better than my social betters, because that was what was wanted upping the beats catch for the records,will I get invited back? doubt it better anglers than I will be there first,thats what counts.Still each to their own,but it wont stop me trying like a good un as hard as I can each and every time I fish for a Salmon,if I catch brilliant,if I don't well such is life and if some one else dose great I am truly pleased for them and if I can help some one to that end too just as much of a buzz.Well must dash,off to Wales no doubt to offend some one with a lessor fire than the one burning in me ,trying to catch a Sewin on the Towy on a gurt big tube and a sunk line,still hope you both have a tight line and race you to a 65lber. Pedro.

[rennie]

Sorry Fruin missed your bit before I replied to Dennis n W.Gunn,if you care to turn up at Kerkock or any where at first light and fish all the pools before the bedheads turn up at office hours,how? start at boatlands how far would you get?,we all know if you wish to start early you do so with the say so of the ghillie and you stick to the pool rotation please don't hint other wise.Desperado? no,just very keen and some one who has to save/work very hard for his fishing,neither do I want to waste my chances I have to travel far enough,its amazing how success breeds jealousy,I may not be that successful but if I want to push myself who are you or indeed any one to say I am wrong to motivate myself in such a way.Hey Ho its a funny old world,see you soon on the banks of the Tay and we can agree to differ,but if one of us catches a fish then its worth it.

[Fruin]

rennie said:

its amazing how success breeds jealousy

That must be it; we're all jealous.

[johnmac]

Ouch! a few harsh words in this thread!!
Im new to this Salmon fishing, but i'll give my thoughts all the same!
Firstly, i personally dont think its all about catching a fish! If that was the case i'd have given up by now after 30 sessions and no fish For me personally its about going out taking in the scenery and relaxing! Maybe not everyones idea of a good days fishing... but it's mine!

So you may ask, why do i think like this? well i suppose having two or so miles of the River Ericht in Perthshire for £30 a season might have something to do with it!! Maybe if i fished beats on the Tay or Tweed or wherever for £50 a day or more, in some cases a lot more, then i'd expect a fish or at least have high hopes of one!

But unfortunately when you are in pursuit of a wild animal or fish, nothing is guaranteed, regardless of how much you pay! ;D

As for when its right or wrong to fish? i suppose it depends on the beat, the ghillie (if there is one) and the angler! Personally I like to fish quite early, normally 8am or 9am and give up by 11 or 12mid-day if its hot and the rivers low. Yes thats a time that might give me a better chance of a fish.... but the main reason is its cooler in waders! and there are few if any anglers out, which is perfect, because the Ericht has a few folk that hog the pools all day long!

So to sum up, just enjoy the day and remember that catching aint everything! ;D but it would be nice some days!

[easky]

Beanie, was it the Gravenue or Paddys Streams by any chance

Unfortunatley I am not a member but last year you could get early tickets and I caught most of my fish between 5.30 - 9.00. Some people abused this and as you probably know day tickets are just from 9.00 now.

As others have said the first hour after first light is often the best time, esp if it the conditions are less than perfect (low water and bright/sunny/v warm).

E

[beanieboy]

I fish the Feddens - it is a private stretch. I don't fish any of the Sion water due to the behaviour of many of the so called anglers that fish it.

[easky]

where abouts is that, I haven't heard of it before. I know a guy who fishes the Baroncourt water (Snas etc) - its not that stretch is it?

Lets hope this rain brings in the grilse

E

[beanieboy]

Its the next stretch downstream from the Sna.

[easky]

Is it a fairly slow stretch or does it also have streamy fly water?

Was reading the cfb.ie site and see that Stevie Munn and another guy were trout fishing on the 'upper Mourne' (not sure where) and each caught 5 grilse each using weighted nymphs. They seem to be saying there a plenty of fish through the system now.

E