Off the reel or in direct hand contact?

[splash]

Okey dokey boys and girls, seconds out and here we go again. In the thread on approaching salmon fishing from a trout fishers perspective, we digressed at one point and started to talk about the retrieve after a cast had been delivered. Now one would have thought that this was relatively straightforward in salmon fishing but as in all types of fishing nothing ever seems to be quite as straightforward as it appears and different schools of thought seem to prevail. So to set the scene where I'm coming from some background thoughts again

Troot fishing

Show me the man who retrieves in steady 3 foot pulls all the time and I'll show you an unsuccessful trout angler. You have got to mix it up all the time. I was an early convert to stillwater nymph and buzzer fishing in the eighties and was trying to explain it to an elderly gent and wet fly exponent from my club "thats not fishing, thats just holding on " came the response. He never did get the hang of the game....

Trout to Salmon

When I started salmon fishing the hardest thing to learn was to do nothing during the retrieve and just let the flies swing. Believe me this was not easy as I had grown used to fishing dry fly and nymph fishing and to reacting to each and every tiny signal that a fish had taken, from a herring bone ripple at the end of a floating line indicating a take when fishing buzzers deep on a 20ft leader, to a subsurface bulge indicating a trout was about to take your emerger. You were always looking for the tiniest signs of a take.
An early catastrophe ensued in my salmon fishing career. Fishing out from a boat on middle Tweed during a difficult week in early spring in with a strong downstream wind and fishing left hand up (I'm right handed) into the right bank, a salmon took on touchdown. I had not even changed the rod over to my right hand to fish the fly round when I made a huge involuntary heave with my left hand raising the rod skyward. The ghillie looked at me, his eyes a mixture of horror and disgust. My fiends were sympathetic, they consoled me they never took the p*ss, honest they never did.... I was inconsolable. I never did it again....

So to Salmon

So, ever since the above mentioned day, I've tended to fish off the reel with a very light drag on the swing and have had no problems hooking fish although like anyone else have have lost a fair few during the fight itself. When a fish takes I just let the fish turn on the fly and hook themselves on the weight of the fly line. It works, but I'm having doubts its always the best way. Why: Increasingly I'm using shooting heads for early at late season work and I find I like to have an element of control over these lines from touchdown. Normal mending is not that easy, so you try to try and put a mend in during mid-flight and then let the line fish round at its given depth. With these heads I tend to hand line much more using anything from a slow figure of eight to a fastish strip to a twitch up the home bank after the fly is at dangle. Funnily enough, the last tactic has been one of the most successful amongst the rods that I fish with both during last back end and it has also worked this spring. We are often in a hurry to recast but a lot of the time it really seems to pay to fish the fly back to the rod. If hit a fish on the retrieve I let it draw line and hook itself as above, if I hit it on the dangle, I strip strike just like in salthingyer. This is working for me but I'd like to get more feedback from forum members. I also feel that hand lining sometimes lets me contact subtle takes which I may have missed of the reel. I don't have a huge amount of evidence for this but its a niggle that gets to me from time to time, especially when I'm not catching. I hear many Spey ghillies fish with a clamped down drag and don't let fish take line at all particularly when fishing the sunk line? Why not, it works when spinning and I can't see why it shouldn't work with a sunk line in particular given the inherent stretch in 30 plus yards of flyline. I wonder if this would be different with these non-stretch airflo jobs which again work on sunk line situations at range for trout but are not so clever for situations were floating lines and delicate presentation are the order of the day as when you strike a fish with them, you invariably straighten the hook out.

With floating lines, I'm much more inclined to fish a continuous J curve, with the appropriate mending and fish much more of the reel but with the sinking shooting heads its a different game and I much prefer to be in touch and, as I mentioned earlier, feel that this puts me in contact with more delicate takes, although hooking them is another matter!

So, over to you gents; off the reel or direct to hand during the retrieve. I guess its quite a contentious subject and I'm really interested to find out your thoughts and prejudices !

Splash

[munrokiller]

Splash,

You may find the link useful.

salmosalar.proboards80.com/index.cgi?board=rookies&action=display&thread=1173697203&page=1

Tight Lines - by any method !

[splash]

munrokiller said:

Splash,

You may find the link useful.

salmosalar.proboards80.com/index.cgi?board=rookies&action=display&thread=1173697203&page=1

Tight Lines - by any method !

Thanks covers some of the stuff in good detail. I guess I was also trying to cover how we approached the retrieve in general as well as the take - As usual there is nothing new in fishing !

Splash

[donnieW]

I never do "off the reel" and probably strike much sooner than most. When I lift the rod into a fish I do it with a fair amount of force with the line held firmly in my hand. I feel that doing it off the reel is a bit half-hearted, a lightweight strike! Okay, sometimes you get a sudden lunge and the line is away across the pool before you know it but as a rule once I feel resistance I pull and I pull hard. Most of my salmon fishing for many years was on lochs so I didn't have the current and pull of the line to help set the hook. Old habits die hard. I do have spells of losing fish on a rapala though - don't know how the hell that happens.

[splash]

donniewhiteford said:

I never do "off the reel" and probably strike much sooner than most. When I lift the rod into a fish I do it with a fair amount of force with the line held firmly in my hand. I feel that doing it off the reel is a bit half-hearted, a lightweight strike! Okay, sometimes you get a sudden lunge and the line is away across the pool before you know it but as a rule once I feel resistance I pull and I pull hard. Most of my salmon fishing for many years was on lochs so I didn't have the current and pull of the line to help set the hook. Old habits die hard. I do have spells of losing fish on a rapala though - don't know how the hell that happens.

Kerist Donny that sounds like what I do for tarpon !

[rennie]

Preferred method splash is to fish off an open reel,usually coz I fish a long line covering as much water as I can (fully sunk,sink tippy stuff or full floater) and it works very well out in the stream.Don't really make a conscious effort to fish the dangle as it usually ends in tears but if I do feel a fish on the retrieve I apply copious amounts of welly.Now bucking the trend if I am fishing a shooting head(sunk or floating) its rod up in the air line clamped up and firmly tighten on the pull,usually coz I will have a lot more line out in the stream.Slower water I usually cast square and point the rod downstream to speed up the flys passage and any fish showing interest will hook itself against the belly of the line but I hasten to add I will lift and tighten a lot quicker this way.Don't really fish many places where I have to hand work the fly in slower flows but when I do its lift and tighten tighten firmly before the fish has chance to spit my fly back at me.To buck the trend completely if anything in front of me is running hard and takes are quick stabby affairs or slack liners I will apply my best Mark of Zorro strike to set the hook quickest.Oh and Collie dogs and Sunrays,tend to give a good whack when a fish takes these too.So there we have it I always fish off the reel?,well at least I thought I did.

[ibm59]

Not quite sure how to word this so please bear with me.
I come from a mainly trout fishing background but have been fishing single handed for salmon for more years than I'll admit to and double handers for the last six years.
Would anyone disagree that fishing single handed puts you in more direct contact with the fly and anything that takes it? Lets face it , unless you're in the superman casting league you are not going to be fishing effectively much beyond 15/20yds at most. A lot less than a normal water covering double handed cast and with a lot less untensioned line.
So why does a firm lifting the minute you feel the take on the single hander work, when trying the same antics with the long rod
will only lead to tears? Beats me , but it's a fact. For me anyway.
Incidently , I'm an off the reel guy with the double hander and will avoid water that requires handlining for that very reason.

[sinkingtip]

Hi Splash - As someone who has only ever fished rivers for S+S/T this is my general modus operandi and in the 35 odd years I have been at this game it has done me OK and is generally in line with the sound advice given by Donnie. Having made the perfect cast by either the spey or the overhead technique, a nano second after 'splashdown' I throw a fairly major upstream mend using the 'loose stuff' I have purposely held back after putting out the required amount of line. Infact, with experience, you can develop the skill of starting to create the mend before the line touches down if required. This loose stuff is absolutely paramount to the whole point of the exercise for obvious reasons (hopefully) and is the 'raw material' you need to create the curve and achieve the desired effect - a bit of advice often overlooked IMO when the mechanics of mending line are being discussed....maybe not. As a result, your fly is now fishing through the 'taking strip' at the required depth and pace due to your skills and ability to make decisions eg. a few more short mends in quick succession or a definite change in angle dependent on the conditions, heights, character of pool etc etc. No need to 'work' the fly IMO unless you are fishing a slow or even 'static' pool and employing a proven technique for that pool such as 'backing up' or variations on the theme.

Anyhow - apologies for the digression - so, "the flea is coming aroond jist braw min", you are coming around slowly with it and the rod is pointing 'up' of vertical. Drag set to the best of your 'imagination' and the line is being held in your RH towards the top of the cork and through, in all probability, your 1st or 2nd fingers (wish I could draw it for you but you know what I mean). Left hand now free to pick nose, scratch arse or whatever.

Maybe you still have a bit of loose stuff left (a yard - yard and a half max) - reel it up if you want or just leave it. If you leave it and the next thing you know you are into him then just let the line slip slowly through your fingers at a controlled pace as and by whatever amount the fish dictates before playing it directly "off the reel".
If you have used up all the 'loose' during the mending, or as the fly is fishing round, and you get a pull then do as Donnies suggests and simply lift into the fish with a wee extra 'bump' at an appropriate point to set the hook. In doing this we are not striking "off the reel" as the line is being held firmly, but with control, between fingers. Thereafter I just guide the line lightly over/ through my protruding index finger RH which is still, and always has been, towards the top end of the cork handle. It is amazing how much variation in drag control you can get in the crook of your index finger. The above scenario by this time has probably lasted no longer than about 10 - 20 seconds. At this point I decide where and how best to play the fish. On most occasions I simply turn to face the bank with my rod over my shoulder (un clamped fingers) and slowly walk towards the shore. Assuming the drag is set correctly there should be no problems - if the fish wants to run then let it. Get on the bank and decide whether you get down to and opposite him or that you 'walk' the fish back up to a spot of your choosing - then you just enjoy it !!
As for "retrieving" after the fly has reached the dangle to induce a take I have found over the years that it works, or it can work, for grilse or sea troots but not very often (for me anyhow) with 'fish'. Again, I am talking about moving water here as opposed to 'flat' pools.

Sincere apologies for going way off the detail of your thread but after two turkish coffees and an organic black chocolate easter egg it was always on the cards.

Welcome to the forum and look forward to your future posts - hope that has been of at least some help to someone.

[sinkingtip]

Hi IBM - as someone who fishes single handed for salmon often I have never felt the need to rethink the general strategy or technique (apart from casting) in moving from single to double handed rods. I do exactly the same thing for both but at a different 'scale' and I am generally unaware of any variations in sensitivity prior to the take. After the take - now thats a different ball game entirely

[williegunn]

Wham it out, hold the line against the cork, when the fish takes and comes splashing to the top let the line go.

[splash]

williegunn said:

Wham it out, hold the line against the cork, when the fish takes and comes splashing to the top let the line go.

Good no nonsense, sensible advice....

[ibm59]

sinkingtip said:

Hi IBM - a someone who fishes single handed for salmon often I have never felt the need to rethink the general strategy or technique (apart from casting) in moving from single to double handed rods. I do exactly the same thing for both but at a different 'scale'.

I think you've hit the nail right on its poor little napper by using "scale". I 'm sure someone out there with a background in physics could straighten this one out. Just do it in easily understood language , please. Anything beyond spherical trig/celestial navigation is beyond me. :DI don't fish single handed that much these days, small waters excepted, but that's more to do with my paranoia over false casting and line flash than anything else. Another thread???
Regards B.

[ibm59]

williegunn said:

Wham it out, hold the line against the cork, when the fish takes and comes splashing to the top let the line go.

Seem to remember that Wham were a boy band back in the 80's.
Still a fan then, WG? ;D ;D

[Sloggi]

When fishing "standard" patterns down and across I fish off the reel. However, I have lost the odd fish right at the take when stripping a Collie Dog - all that loose line is a bit awkward - always find a branch etc. I also, occasionally and very lazily, figure-of-eight with one hand only holding the line - without having the line between rod hand and handle (as WG points out) as a "gentle brake". This is shockingly bad and has lost me fish - still do it for the thrill, though Not good and nippy on the fingers.

[williegunn]

ibm59 said:

williegunn said:

Wham it out, hold the line against the cork, when the fish takes and comes splashing to the top let the line go.

Seem to remember that Wham were a boy band back in the 80's.
Still a fan then, WG? ;D ;D

A fan? I was the lead singer. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[ibm59]

williegunn said:

ibm59 said:

Seem to remember that Wham were a boy band back in the 80's.
Still a fan then, WG? ;D ;D

A fan? I was the lead singer. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You'll be wearing Tweed then? ;D ;D

[splash]

sinkingtip said:

Hi Splash - As someone who has only ever fished rivers for S+S/T this is my general modus operandi and in the 35 odd years I have been at this game it has done me OK and is generally in line with the sound advice given by Donnie. Having made the perfect cast by either the spey or the overhead technique, a nano second after 'splashdown' I throw a fairly major upstream mend using the 'loose stuff' I have purposely held back after putting out the required amount of line. Infact, with experience, you can develop the skill of starting to create the mend before the line touches down if required. This loose stuff is absolutely paramount to the whole point of the exercise for obvious reasons (hopefully) and is the 'raw material' you need to create the curve and achieve the desired effect - a bit of advice often overlooked IMO when the mechanics of mending line are being discussed....maybe not. As a result, your fly is now fishing through the 'taking strip' at the required depth and pace due to your skills and ability to make decisions eg. a few more short mends in quick succession or a definite change in angle dependent on the conditions, heights, character of pool etc etc. No need to 'work' the fly IMO unless you are fishing a slow or even 'static' pool and employing a proven technique for that pool such as 'backing up' or variations on the theme.

Anyhow - apologies for the digression - so, "the flea is coming aroond jist braw min", you are coming around slowly with it and the rod is pointing 'up' of vertical. Drag set to the best of your 'imagination' and the line is being held in your RH towards the top of the cork and through, in all probability, your 1st or 2nd fingers (wish I could draw it for you but you know what I mean). Left hand now free to pick nose, scratch arse or whatever.

Maybe you still have a bit of loose stuff left (a yard - yard and a half max) - reel it up if you want or just leave it. If you leave it and the next thing you know you are into him then just let the line slip slowly through your fingers at a controlled pace as and by whatever amount the fish dictates before playing it directly "off the reel".
If you have used up all the 'loose' during the mending, or as the fly is fishing round, and you get a pull then do as Donnies suggests and simply lift into the fish with a wee extra 'bump' at an appropriate point to set the hook. In doing this we are not striking "off the reel" as the line is being held firmly, but with control, between fingers. Thereafter I just guide the line lightly over/ through my protruding index finger RH which is still, and always has been, towards the top end of the cork handle. It is amazing how much variation in drag control you can get in the crook of your index finger. The above scenario by this time has probably lasted no longer than about 10 - 20 seconds. At this point I decide where and how best to play the fish. On most occasions I simply turn to face the bank with my rod over my shoulder (un clamped fingers) and slowly walk towards the shore. Assuming the drag is set correctly there should be no problems - if the fish wants to run then let it. Get on the bank and decide whether you get down to and opposite him or that you 'walk' the fish back up to a spot of your choosing - then you just enjoy it !!
As for "retrieving" after the fly has reached the dangle to induce a take I have found over the years that it works, or it can work, for grilse or sea troots but not very often (for me anyhow) with 'fish'. Again, I am talking about moving water here as opposed to 'flat' pools.

Sincere apologies for going way off the detail of your thread but after two turkish coffees and an organic black chocolate easter egg it was always on the cards.

Welcome to the forum and look forward to your future posts - hope that has been of at least some help to someone.

Thanks for the detailed response sinkingtip. I was trying to get a bit of dialogue going here and to question some conventional thinking around presentation prior to the take. Funnily enough , one thing that continues to amaze me is how salmon will take a fly fished fast in early season and often in fairly streamy water where you would not expect them to be until the water warms up a bit. It may be down to the fact that some spring fish are aggressive takers and some are not and I'm a bit inclined to this argument myself but that's the subject of another thread if not another complete forum !

cheers

Splash

[splash]

williegunn said:

ibm59 said:

Seem to remember that Wham were a boy band back in the 80's.
Still a fan then, WG? ;D ;D

A fan? I was the lead singer. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

We better not speculate where you were whammin it oot then !! ;D

[hornet]

Splash,

Like you i fished for trout on still waters and lochs and sometimes i still manage to get out . When starting off salmon fishing i carried over some of the trout habits like striking immediately when feeling the fish, figure of eighting the flie during the line swing and stripping in to recast when on the dangle.

Through all of this i managed to hook and land fish successfully it was only when i started to get spey casting and fishing tuition that i fished off the reel and lost fish. I have also caught fish on this method but if were to look back and count strike against leaving then strike would be the winner. Today i fish off the reel with the line against the cork as it is what i have been taught.

Cheers

Hornet

[bandon]

for salmon i give about a yard of line; and then tighten into the fish.
for peal i hold about a foot of line' as soon as i feel the fish i tighten into the fish, while i am raising the rod i leave this foot of line go.
bandon