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Post by castlikeaghille on Apr 11, 2007 22:29:23 GMT
 WG 'Craithes' really? Could that be 'Crathes' without the extra 'i' representing the 'irrelevance' of picking other people up on their typos when your ship is not in shape. Hardly wonderful with the extra 'l' is it  There's many a grammatical slip twixt keyboard and script Pot, Kettle, Black  CLaG Your write the spell chequer has been fired. Doing  |
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Post by salmonking on Apr 11, 2007 23:23:23 GMT
Stop hi jacking the thread  |
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Post by castlikeaghille on Apr 12, 2007 0:48:52 GMT
Stop hi jacking the thread SK Your thread is a salutary subject, I hoped you might indulge a "topical" aside. However, to keep matters clean, and to attempt to make amends here are some observations. IMO you are asking a question about a river that, in autumn is right up there for the least value, by objective tests, salmon fishing in the UK if not the world for reasons that have been previously stated by other posters. This is something that has happened on the back of forked tongue marketing of gross statistics. However, as I have previously stated, that is not an offence (for some reason) and salmon fishing is one of the last business' where caveat emptor applies. Unfortunately, it is also a business with one of the least sophisticated buy sides of all. Salmon fishing has become 'fashionable' at least with enough people with deep pockets and no experienced basis for judgment to start a period of hyper inflation not seen since the timeshare bubble of the late 80s. Do I see it easing of prices if (when) catches fall away? Well it might result in a curb in the percentage rise, but a reduction, I doubt it in the short term. It took the utter disaster of the mid 90's to bring prices back down to earth yet after a few years of some sort of recovery off go the prices again into unreality orbit. Some good posts made about fishing outside the big 4. My advice to anyone is make the most of that while you can while they remain relatively unknown to the Big Pocket brigade. With the onward rise of Fish Here Web Sites that situation is unlikely to last. For many of us the opportunity cost of fishing in Scotland means we are switching our focus abroad. For the all inclusive cost of a week's very average salmon fishing you can now have a week of dreams in PNW, Canada, Greenland, Norway and S*lthingyer Flats all over the world, trout fishing in NZ etc, etc. Even salmon fishing in Iceland and Russia is not much more than a week in Scotland on a "good beat" at a decent time of year, and considerably less than the creme d' la c . Many of my guys shoot. However, a lottery day on some upper tweed beats for £100-120 +VAT per rod in the autumn (and rising fast unlike the catch returns which are sinking) or a day's walked up shooting? Neither is cheap, but at least on the shoot in the unlikely event the weather stops it your day will be re-arranged. We will continue to fish for salmon in the UK where we see some semblance of value; but that is becoming the exception, not the rule  However, when all is said and done you pays yer money and takes yer choice, and value for money is ultimately down to the individual Regardez CLaG |
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Post by zephead on Apr 12, 2007 2:27:35 GMT
Oooooh.Soap box height of Eiffell Tower pulled out of cupboard for this one........!!!!!!
To put matters in context,my bill for three weeks fishing on Tweed for last year went up over a grand cumulatively,and if it had been for the equivalent weeks this year it'd be over £1500 quid up on 2 years ago-which is a bit hairy when you think one of them was a middling to dodgy "first week of the back-end lettings" on a kidney sale stretch and another 2 weeks of decent/good Spring fishing on the middle/lower river.Pleased I have reduced comittments and had a go at plenty of "value" Last Chance Saloon fishing on Dee in it's place before FishGreed style inflation occurs and the Dee owners adopt a small African nations Chancellor of the Exchequer as their own inflation advisor.
By way of example,my prime Tweed beat week was jacked up in light of our relative success pro rata to piss poor mid Autumn catches (yes,that's the agents excuse for the owners pricing policy,and yes,the band are still playing Believe it if you Will).The fact I had reduced rods to an acceptable level appropriate to the expected conditions and then had it imposed as mandatory rod numbers the year following in the terms of the let and then a price increase for the beat as a whole was the final straw and after 4 happy years of taking barbecue weather fishing I said cheerio.Net result-it was let within 10 minutes of me saying no for the 06 season and it has been taken by a another new tenant for 07-who I also know-because
last year the folks who took drought season fishing had nae fish for the week which is the REAL risk despite a decent team improving a poor week into a good one.
The probs with Tweed fishing quality and expectations versus demand are,controversially in some quarters,as follows:
1.FishGreed Website-too much market info between owners with too many "new to river" anglers taking rods at poor times of the year to be followed by another set of anglers the year following booking on Lemming Line,(mis spell intended) because they hear its good when in fact catch returns are dropping because rod effort is going north against static/falling catches.
2.Proprietors letting rods to fluff chuckers/tourists in mid-summer and iffy periods for their beat and then getting regular weekly letting tenants to bear the cost of the Tweed levy for "surprise" fluff chucker caught fish they wouldn't normally have caught when the boatmen were gardening and boat painting.Pity because the "surprise"/high summer fish that are caught add £10-12k a time to the value of the beat in current Tweed capital value prices as against the £60 or so levy per fish for the handful of fish that would not have been traditionally taken when there was no angling effort on the beat.
3.The corpulent hostility market is getting into Tweed fishing.Amongst certain property lads I know it has become the new shooting/golf.They need "guaranteed" success for their guests and mid-Tweed in October/November is where they'll just about get it,even of the guest has never seen a fly rod til that point.Great value business development spend in a good water with plenty of death wish kippers in the pools until some corporate accountant asks why they were all in the office for the week they were supposed to be away "building the business" and they reply that watching £700's worth of Ovaltine and dead sheep stew per man per day drift past the hut is enhancing business development prospects-not!
4.Noticeable you mention 2003-many beats had a bumper low water year in 2003/2004 wet August early back end at low price per rod per day prices.The levy has been pushed thro the roof on some beats given it is based on the 5 year average for which many have not made a proper provision for and so are building stepped rod price increases into to lessen the inevitable levy blow.Rateable Values and the levy are calculated on 5 year averages and the proprietors need to get the cash back somehow and price increases are a great way of recouping it.Shame normal year potentail is not matching price hikes.
5.Similarly the need for having a ghillie/boatmen on duty out of "prime" season for some
beats adds to the cost of running the beat against the net revenue stream from let "out of usual season" rods-especially,if like some beats below Kelso the antedeluvian attitudes of the proprietor still see employing boatmen on a seasonal and not full time basis as a way forward in the same manner they cry into their evening sherry over the Repeal of the Corn Laws.Some see summer lettings as a chore/bugbear to the running of the beat which they have to do to kep it in the public/letting eye.Therefore the decent fishing has got expensive to subsidise boatmen having to be on duty for the whole season when previously they were only"on" in two 3/4 month early and late spells.
6.Grouse shooting and shooting in general had become more expensive in the last 5 years and regrettably Tweed fishing will always be in this pricing bracket as those who can afford those levels for a days shooting will base their days prime salmon fishing against this type of benchmark.
Still a great river to fish if you can find the value and justify the outlay for what can be stunning fishing from time to time-just getting harder and harder twixt the corporate lads,owners over egging poor beats and serried ranks of fluff chuckers that have left the local stockie pond.
DTYS!
ZH
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Post by tynespeycaster on Apr 12, 2007 6:30:40 GMT
Phew!! But spot on Zephead. They appear to have us by the short and curlies as we continue to pursue our passion, irrespective of cost, no contest |
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Post by edenman on Apr 12, 2007 8:48:19 GMT
my fishing costs £50 average catch 25 salmon.
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Post by salar76 on Apr 12, 2007 10:30:54 GMT
Sadly it's all down to supply and demand, and those that manage the Tweed seem particularly good at exploiting that - my upper Tweed fishing has gone up by around 40% over the past 5 years.
After all, this is a rather overpopulated little island that we live on with limited salmon fishing resources to go round the Brits and everyone else who wants a slice. For instance, much of the decent spring fishing on the Dee is now in the hands of the Scandinavians - this year I was bumped down a week to make way for the Norwegian invasion.
So if you want fishing that is generally prolific (no fishing is consistently prolific), you will generally have to pay through the nose for it (as has already been highlighted, there are still many hidden gems out there). We may not like it, but it is a sad fact of life....
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Post by zephead on Apr 12, 2007 13:40:12 GMT
Well done Edenman-wish I still had that sort of quality and price of fishing on my doorstep but as I don't I try to book weeks on the best beats,at their most productive periods and take the pain when the Strutts/Galbraiths bill arrives.
The big danger of the Fish Scotland computer letting system and the returns it displays is that it has jacked up Tweed prices through almost perfect information being available to the proprietors who have been "finessing" up the price of average beats at poor times of the year.IMHO lots of it to do with neighbouring estates getting into a virility test as to the quality if their respective beats.Like salar76 points out this sort of "pissing contest" will start to follow suit elsewhere-Dee looks like it's gonna be next with the Viking hordes now tethering their longboats at a beats near Banchory and booking thro an Icelandic agent for some beats.
Willie Gunne may disagree,and it would be great to see how certain sexy Spey beats have done by Saturday teatimes,but a general hats off to the Spey proprietors IMHO for keeping their catches to themselves,their pricing confidential and general cost of fishing good value (comparatively speaking I know) compared to a cocoa watching day on middle Tweed in October.
Off to Droughtsville Roxburghshire now for a bit more £1 a minute fun in the sun.
DTYS!
ZH
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Post by ludite1 on Apr 12, 2007 14:56:05 GMT
I pay what I can justifiably afford, 25year fishing the nothumberland anglers federation waters on the Coquet and a back end week on the the upper Tweed.last 8 years been fishing Bywell (half rod) all I could scrape together. and a few days on the lower Tweed.Losing my Bywell fishing naxt year, (sob )due to estate wanting to make more money from there fishing,so its out with the members who have go the catch rate up and paid into the buying out of the nets, and in with the men with the money which im not one. is this the end of my fishing? no chance, ill just do as always find some fishing I can afford , might not be as good but ill be out there fishing and dreaming of winning the lottery so I can fish the the others who seem to have more money then sense (still crying at lossing my fishing 4 next year) lifes to short to to spend time moaning just go fishing where you can afford and enjoy it
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Post by greenalert on Apr 12, 2007 17:25:43 GMT
I will gladly take £100 a day off any of you who want to come and Fish the Deveron. In Fact I tell you what - I will do you a wee deal- £75 how is that. Seriously - BEST BEAT AT PRIME TIME------- £385 per rod PER WEEKRemember outside of the big four - we are next on the list and our 10 year average is 3000 salmon per year. No wild fluctuations but we do need a bit of water to get fish. If you fancy a week check out the web site below. We do have an image/price problem though. Many people do not think it is up to much as the prices are low. Many a time I have quoted a weekly figure and the punter would have been happy to pay that per day. Frank Frank is absolutely right, I have had some great fishing up the Deveron over the last couple of years & never I think had to pay more than £30 per day |
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Post by colliedog on Apr 13, 2007 9:16:02 GMT
I think the general consensus is that prices are being driven up by a combination of greedy proprieters, even greedier letting agents and a willingness of some to pay ludicrous prices for not much better than average fishing.
What really gets my goat though is the immediate penalty that we pay for a bit of hard earned success - I am aware of specific beats on the Tay, Tay tributaties, Dee and North Esk where the spring prices have this year increased by the order of 50-80% simply because last year was a bit better than usual. Opportunism of the highest order.
And will prices be correspondingly dropped next year as a result of the below average catches - aye right!
Thankfully there are still a few examples of fair pricing and good value out there to be found. Just don't expect to find them on the Tweed!
CD
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Post by tynetraveller on Apr 13, 2007 16:15:11 GMT
You really can't blame proprietors, it is supply and demand. For fishing before June it is especially competitive because Scotland/ Ireland are the only places that have a run at this time, so the scandis come over in numbers.
Russia is still a massive bargain away from the prime times and prime rivers. There are still two rods available first week on the Kola river, last year this week cost about £2,000 per rod ( This includes meals and accomodation) and a lot of fish were caught, with the average OVER 20lbs. My friend fished the week after and had fifteen to 35lbs. It will be a tiny bit on the chilly side at that time of year though.
First week at Kharlovka this year was very good value including all you can drink. It is a gamble because if it is really cold there won't be many fish about, but the fish that are there will be huge and long-tail liced and in a normal year a good rod could expect 3-5 fish, most of which will be over 20lbs.
The Varzina is only really marketed to Scandis and thus is much cheaper than most Kola rivers. Around £2000 per week throughout the season all in gets you 10-30 fish each with plenty of 20lbers about and the chance of a 12lb wild brown trout thrown in.
July/ August weeks in the upper Varzuga catchment camps can also be had for this kind of money. Dry fly and waking tubes over pools with literally thousands of salmon in each.
I know this is far from cheap fishing, but boy is it better value than the Tweed at back end or Crathes in the Spring. If you are reasonably fit and a good wader, the fishing is brilliant. Not just the fish, but rivers with a stream faster than the spey in untouched wilderness ( Boy can you exclude the Kola river from that wilderness description)
I have had good conditions and bad conditions in Russia and have always caught fish (Just!)
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Post by tyneandrew on Apr 13, 2007 16:28:26 GMT
Interesting information there Simon - would love to fish out there, sure i will one day.
Out of interest does anyone know how much spring fishing costs on the 'prime' spring weeks on the Tweed on beats such as Junction, Floors, Sprouston, Henderside?
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Post by salar76 on Apr 13, 2007 18:25:03 GMT
Interesting information there Simon - would love to fish out there, sure i will one day. Out of interest does anyone know how much spring fishing costs on the 'prime' spring weeks on the Tweed on beats such as Junction, Floors, Sprouston, Henderside? You're still paying circa £150/day on these in April (if you can get on)...hardly bargain basement stuff. I think that with Floors you have to take accom at the hotel, which makes for a big bucks week. |
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Post by paulsewin on Apr 13, 2007 19:13:50 GMT
Interesting information there Simon - would love to fish out there, sure i will one day. Out of interest does anyone know how much spring fishing costs on the 'prime' spring weeks on the Tweed on beats such as Junction, Floors, Sprouston, Henderside? I have fished Hendersyde in February for the last 6 years. This year, for three days commencing, 15 Feb, the cost was £119.25 (£110 +VAT) per rod per day. It will be about £20 +VAT per day cheaper until 14 Feb, that's the date when the fly only restriction is lifted. I would imagine Sprouston is the same. I don't go there to spin but it is nice to use it to break things up if the normal downstream gale has deteriorated to a hurricane. There aren't that many fish around, but this year I managed to catch a 14lb fish, and on the same day Floors produced a 21lb fish - photo of this is still on Fishtweed. There did seem to be a bit of a run of fish considerably bigger than the 6-8lb fish I've caught in the past. No doubt the prices will be adjusted to reflect this next year!!! I can't speak about Floors and Junction but certainly for Sprouston and Hendersyde, you do get the full service of a ghillie with each rod, whether you are using the boat or not. This is one of the major attactions for me because it gives me a chance to catch up with the stories about the autumn fishing. The other advantage is they will quickly point out any weaknesses in casting technique that may have developed during the close season. The one drawback, if I'm fishing from a boat, is I never really know if I caught the fish, or the ghillie. It is very difficult to tell whether a slight draw on the oars held the fly over a lie for a split second longer. Sometimes, the ghillies don't know themselves, these minor adjustments are made as naturally as mending the line. If you are thinking about doing this, I would recommend you try and I hope your fishing is not blighted by Teviot putting its "special" brown stain in the water. If you like listening to the ghillies talking and want an honest assessment of the daily returns, have a couple of drinks in the White Swan. Some of the ghillies from Floors, Junction, Sprouston, Hendersyde and Cornhill will usually be in there for an hour or so after the end of the fishing. Friday and Saturday are the best nights for this gathering. PM me if you want any details about accomodation, places to eat, etc. |
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Post by clyde-rod on Apr 13, 2007 21:05:21 GMT
Take a look at the back of this months trout and salmon. i have always wanted to fish Grantown on spey and the weekly tickets for juniors are £15 ;D ;D ;D. adults are £565 for the season, i think. They now have upper castle grant which would certainly be worth a cast.
Ryan
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Post by zephead on Apr 15, 2007 15:44:25 GMT
April on Sprouston and Junction are batting at £200 a day at.I spoke to this weeks Sprouston tenant who I know quite well on Thursday evening in the new Chinese restauarnt.Despite the fact he is a highly skilled and emminent surgeon I was pleased he was eating with chopsticks so he couldn't get at his wrists as they had not a fish until then and finished the week blank with 4 of Hendersyde's fish opposite coming on a wee Blair from behind the boat.
Sprouston/Hendersyde will see you £800 a day back end prime time and Junction is £1000 a day minus plus or minus a few coppers.
Note the point about Russia but my problem is enjoying a beer in the White Sawn/Boat o Fiddich/Burnett Arms/Angel in Corbridge after a days fishing.
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Post by Fruin on Apr 16, 2007 11:51:47 GMT
Yes, it is too expensive. So much so that, if the pricing trend continues I cannot see myself fishing for salmon much beyond the next five years. The good water is not worth the money, and much of the association water (local to me) is not worth the effort.
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say
Member
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Post by say on Apr 16, 2007 12:07:05 GMT
There are a few places, such as the Don and Deveron that can offer exceptional value, even the Ythan in October can be good.
The fish whatever websites have made obtaining beat info so much more accessible to the masses that getting on the rivers in spring is proving both difficult and expensive.
When I was up fishing Craigellachie on Friday, I spoke with a lad who fishes the Aberlour association beat on the Spey for £35 a season with a total of 11 salmon landed.
At around £3.20 per salmon this is inexpensive fishing, considering the levy is around £60 per fish. The pity is that the 'tourist' angler is paying the way for the locals at a cost of around £35 per day.
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Post by jimthefish on Apr 16, 2007 13:25:52 GMT
You really can't blame proprietors, it is supply and demand. Not in every case. I will never forget the experience I had in the eighties in the middle Dee. For a few years my friend and I rented a middle July week on Kincardine and Borrowston getting the run of both beats for not a lot of money. Sometimes tough conditions but we always put fish in the book by fishing unsociable hours and resting the water in the bright afternoons. One year in the late eighties we hit what every salmon/seatrout fisherman hopes for..... a big spate at the beginning of the week with fresh fish, salmon, grilse and seatrout running into the beat on a falling water. We were young, keen and filled our boots. As thanks we lost our week the following year when Mr Bradford let the fishings together with his stately home to a party of Americans presumably for a heap of dosh on the strength of our catches. We were given no explanation or offered any other week. What really hurt was the fact that I didn't even receive the courtesy of a reply to the nice letter I wrote asking him to bear us in mind as tenants should a vacancy arise in the future. The only consolation was that the year we lost our fishing saw a prolonged July drought and the Americans caught a total of 0. Years later in the late nineties, the decline of the Dee catches had coincided with my rise in status with the Bank I worked for. The first week of May on Kincardine/Borrowston Beats came on the market . Prime time and ideal for a corporate week so I sounded out Mr Bradford. Yes he would be delighted to show me round his stately home the accomodation in which would be a condition of letting. Further more he and Mrs Bradford would be gracious enough to join me and my guests for dinner every night. He obviously didn't remember me as the young man who had fished his beats in the eighties but was slightly popped when I told him the accomodation didn't suit. The Bank would take the fishing but we would stay at The Banchory Lodge Hotel thank you very much. We actually had some very memorable sport that week in the excellent water running but for various reasons I declined the fishing the following year in favour of Invery. Sorry if this sounds like a rant but in my experience, with a few noteable exceptions, this type of behaviour is not untypical of proprietors. If you want a real rant, get me onto the subject of the pricing of Lower Floors in November ! |
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