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Post by paulsewin on Apr 12, 2007 23:06:36 GMT
How many times have you hooked a salmon, or had a take, by accident? Did you analyse the experience and wonder if it was actually a clue to another presentation method?
Here are two of mine.
Ravenswood, Tweed, July 2002. Early days with the double handed rod. If there had been a proficiency test, I wouldn't have been allowed to fish.
The pool, Beech tree, I think, right bank. A very fast run on your side of the river and slacker water for the other 2/3 of the pool consisting of largish rocks and bed rock cover with weed growing in strands 6-8 feet long.
The worst possible cast you could imagine. Aimed at 45 degrees, landed square and a real heap. Think seismograph readout in a major earthquake. I left the cast where it was and watched the end of the line. As the belly was swept downstream, the tip of the line moved square across the current and then was pulled upsteam before being dragged downstream.
A grilse took the fly, at some point during the process, and was my first classic river salmon.
Was this something new? I thought so until I found both Balfour-Kinnear and Righyni had written about the method of "pulling off". The difference was that they used it on a fish that had risen to a fly but not taken it.
The second one was on the Teifi, a tail of a pool. A cast didn't quite reach the intended spot. I was halfway through an attempt to jump roll it back out where I wanted when I checked the cast halfway through. The fly, 3/4 copper tube was allowed to drop back straight downstream.
My intention was to let it come round and recast without ripping the fly out of the fast current. As it dropped back the fly was grabbed by a fish which ripped about 4 yards of line out of my hand and then dropped it.
Was this something new that we could use as an option for fly fishing? If you remember that the fly dropped downstream in a straight line, it was exactly the same presentation that anglers try to achieve with a float fished shrimp, a trotted worm and a float fished worm (Irish style on Moy). A minor tactic worth considering?
Share your experiences - salmon are so few and far between these days. These minor tactics are becoming more important to catch what may be the only fish in the pool.
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Post by tynetraveller on Apr 13, 2007 8:58:54 GMT
This happens quite a bit, especially salmon taking dead drifted flies. It happened to me twice last year- One fish I was casting overhead from a cliff with a hill rising up behind me. The fly hit the slope on the back cast and twenty yards of spaghetti landed upstream in the water fifteen feet out. As I started lining in the slack, something quite obviuosly started doing the same thing from the fly end. I tightened into the fish when I had eventually got rid of all the slack and landed this lovely sea-liced 11ber.  I also hooked a fish last year whilst stripping out running line to make a longer cast, as did one of my fishing mates. Both times there was no tension on the fly line. |
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Post by albyn73 on Apr 13, 2007 9:49:04 GMT
Maybe its the fly being presented naturally, rather than being straight out. I remember an old friend telling me a lot of times of just stepping into a river and pulling line off and all of a sudden his line and GP Shrimp just shot away, an easy catch that he did'nt expect. He also said of the salmon that would pick up his bunch of worms on one side of the river and drop it on the other side. Both cases where there is no tension on the lines, it is something only the salmon will know, and we have to wonder why. A natural presentation, cast upstream & see, i have did it myself with intermediate tip for sea trout & it works for them, mostly fresh fish!!!!
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Post by splash on Apr 13, 2007 22:04:39 GMT
How many times have you hooked a salmon, or had a take, by accident? Did you analyse the experience and wonder if it was actually a clue to another presentation method? Here are two of mine. Ravenswood, Tweed, July 2002. Early days with the double handed rod. If there had been a proficiency test, I wouldn't have been allowed to fish. The pool, Beech tree, I think, right bank. A very fast run on your side of the river and slacker water for the other 2/3 of the pool consisting of largish rocks and bed rock cover with weed growing in strands 6-8 feet long. The worst possible cast you could imagine. Aimed at 45 degrees, landed square and a real heap. Think seismograph readout in a major earthquake. I left the cast where it was and watched the end of the line. As the belly was swept downstream, the tip of the line moved square across the current and then was pulled upsteam before being dragged downstream. A grilse took the fly, at some point during the process, and was my first classic river salmon. Was this something new? I thought so until I found both Balfour-Kinnear and Righyni had written about the method of "pulling off". The difference was that they used it on a fish that had risen to a fly but not taken it. The second one was on the Teifi, a tail of a pool. A cast didn't quite reach the intended spot. I was halfway through an attempt to jump roll it back out where I wanted when I checked the cast halfway through. The fly, 3/4 copper tube was allowed to drop back straight downstream. My intention was to let it come round and recast without ripping the fly out of the fast current. As it dropped back the fly was grabbed by a fish which ripped about 4 yards of line out of my hand and then dropped it. Was this something new that we could use as an option for fly fishing? If you remember that the fly dropped downstream in a straight line, it was exactly the same presentation that anglers try to achieve with a float fished shrimp, a trotted worm and a float fished worm (Irish style on Moy). A minor tactic worth considering? Share your experiences - salmon are so few and far between these days. These minor tactics are becoming more important to catch what may be the only fish in the pool. Paulsewin, a good post and one that makes us question our self awareness when salmon fishing. Re Scenario 1, I remember early on in my salmon fishing career, Archie Hay the ghille at Crathie on the Dee warningg me about the "fly fishing backwards" after I was just pleased to have bashed it out to the other side of the river. I think what you outline here is very much like we fish the collie, square cast, pull the rod into the near bank causing the line to sweep round in a large arc. This tactic works in a number of fishing situations and seems to be incredibly attractive to all types of fish. On a more general note, you touch upon areas of presentation that we need to think more about. In a previous thread, I mentioned that I (and some fellow fishers) find that we are contacting more spring fish in fast water on flies fished much faster than convention would dictate at this time of year. My personal theory on this is there is perhap[s a sub-population of more aggressive than normal spring fish BUT its only that a hypothesis and any scientist knows to prove the hypothesis you must do the experiment... However, somewhat conversely, we are also finding that we get a lot of fish just tweaking back after the fly has reached the dangle. For me this means a couple of things: 1. We cannot just concentrate on the part of the retrieve when the fly is swinging attractively in the classic way 2. You need to concentrate from the moment , the fly touches down to the moment that you are ready to recast as a fish may take or follow you at any time once the fly has touched down. I fished Ravenswood on Monday and covered a couple of fish which showed in the Crom in the classical way but with no interest. Funnily enough later in the day, I did get some interest in really low water to some big casts fish square and mended downstream half way down Cockburns - Coincidence? No probably a grayling but food for thought ! Bottom line is the fish don't read the text books and when your fly is in the water and you are concentrating you will always have a chance Thanks again for the interesting post Splash |
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Post by paulsewin on Apr 16, 2007 11:58:23 GMT
Hello Splash,
Your post has raised a number of very interesting points.
1. Springers taking a "fast" fly. I don't have enough experience with springers to offer any theories on this behaviour but I have seen some similar anomalies first hand, and not just confined to faster water.
Please indulge me if I have got this all wrong. If a springer is lying in fast water, could it be that this fish is a running fish waiting to move upstream? As such, a resting "running" fish is more likely to take a fly. It's active state could make it more likely to find a faster fly more attractive.
One experience I did find very surprising occurred the first time I fished the Tweed, Hendersyde, in a week which included the 14 February, the date when spinning is allowed. I tried to fish my fly as slowly as possible. Yet, when we switched to a Rapala, I was encouraged to fish it very fast indeed. The ghillies couldn't really offer any explanation other than the fact that this works. I haven't caught a springer like this but too many are caught each year for it to be an accident.
The Rapala was a bigger image than the fly and was fished across the the pool rather than down and across. Also, the initial fast retrieve did get it down a couple of feet very quickly. Just to give you something else to consider, a minor tactic that I was encouraged to use (when I remembered) was to allow the Rapala to rise to the surface when it was directly below me rather than just retrieving. On the third cast a fish followed it right to the surface and swirled underneath it but didn't take.
This may be something we could use for the fly when it's on the dangle.
2. The dangle is an area that I have spent a bit of time thinking about. In small rivers, it is a significant part of fishing a pool, especially ones less than 15 yards wide.
My approach is to but a downstream mend into the belly of the line to help carry the fly out of the main stream into the slower water. I will also "lead" the fly by fishing with my rod tip in front of the fly line. This simply means that my rod is nearer to my bank than the flyline.
Another trick I use is to continue to point the rod tip inshore, sometimes right into, or even over the bank to fish the fly right into the bank. (I always draw line in at the end of the cast, usually 3 slow pulls of 3-4 feet.) Sometimes this makes casting a bit awkward because some form of roll cast is needed to reposition the fly before Spey casting again. I'm out fishing, not casting, so I don't mind this inconvenience.
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toucan
Member
A flock of toucans
Posts: 84
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Post by toucan on Apr 16, 2007 13:06:21 GMT
The other thing you can do having fished the fly hard into your own bank is to then let it fish out again by swinging the rod tip out again. In fact you in a narrow taking strip you can fish right down the pool that way without recasting.
By the way, I think we learn from every fish we meet, but then I suspect there is a touch of good luck in every salmon.
Mark
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Post by donnieW on Apr 16, 2007 13:30:39 GMT
I was fishing the ADAA water at Kemnay 2 years ago and on the Lower Chapel pool a fish kept moving right by the bank every time I moved down the pool. I crept up later for a look and could see a fish with a white mark on its' head lying against the side. To see what the reaction would be, I put on a sinking rapala and dropped it in the water at my feet. The fluttering action as it sank was impressive and then I was aware of movement followed by my line shooting out across the pool. I closed the bail-arm, struck and caught a 15lb salmon. Not a mark on it! The one with the mark kept showing all day.
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Post by para1 on Apr 16, 2007 13:40:29 GMT
Fishing a beat on the Tweed my mate made a bad cast and immediately started to draw line in to make another cast, the gillie told him to let it fish out as there was many a fish taken on a "duff" cast.
I took great pleasure in telling my other mate who phoned that night to see how we got on.
I told him he would have done very well there because of what the gillie said, he was not amused ;D
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Post by ibm59 on Apr 16, 2007 17:29:01 GMT
Fishing a beat on the Tweed my mate made a bad cast and immediately started to draw line in to make another cast, the gillie told him to let it fish out as there was many a fish taken on a "duff" cast. I took great pleasure in telling my other mate who phoned that night to see how we got on. I told him he would have done very well there because of what the gillie said, he was not amused ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D  |
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Post by splash on Apr 16, 2007 18:48:07 GMT
Hello Splash, Your post has raised a number of very interesting points. 1. Springers taking a "fast" fly. I don't have enough experience with springers to offer any theories on this behaviour but I have seen some similar anomalies first hand, and not just confined to faster water. Please indulge me if I have got this all wrong. If a springer is lying in fast water, could it be that this fish is a running fish waiting to move upstream? As such, a resting "running" fish is more likely to take a fly. It's active state could make it more likely to find a faster fly more attractive. One experience I did find very surprising occurred the first time I fished the Tweed, Hendersyde, in a week which included the 14 February, the date when spinning is allowed. I tried to fish my fly as slowly as possible. Yet, when we switched to a Rapala, I was encouraged to fish it very fast indeed. The ghillies couldn't really offer any explanation other than the fact that this works. I haven't caught a springer like this but too many are caught each year for it to be an accident. The Rapala was a bigger image than the fly and was fished across the the pool rather than down and across. Also, the initial fast retrieve did get it down a couple of feet very quickly. Just to give you something else to consider, a minor tactic that I was encouraged to use (when I remembered) was to allow the Rapala to rise to the surface when it was directly below me rather than just retrieving. On the third cast a fish followed it right to the surface and swirled underneath it but didn't take. This may be something we could use for the fly when it's on the dangle. 2. The dangle is an area that I have spent a bit of time thinking about. In small rivers, it is a significant part of fishing a pool, especially ones less than 15 yards wide. My approach is to but a downstream mend into the belly of the line to help carry the fly out of the main stream into the slower water. I will also "lead" the fly by fishing with my rod tip in front of the fly line. This simply means that my rod is nearer to my bank than the flyline. Another trick I use is to continue to point the rod tip inshore, sometimes right into, or even over the bank to fish the fly right into the bank. (I always draw line in at the end of the cast, usually 3 slow pulls of 3-4 feet.) Sometimes this makes casting a bit awkward because some form of roll cast is needed to reposition the fly before Spey casting again. I'm out fishing, not casting, so I don't mind this inconvenience. Thanks for the considered reply. I think you may be right about a running fish in spring which has stopped off in a lie. The other factor that can come into play in my opinion is that provided the fish has moved into in a known lie in fast water and you cover it then the fish only has a split second to make up its mind to take the fly. This also makes me wonder how far a fish will come to take a fly. Ghillies always seem to give very confident answers to this question and I assume its based upon observing fish in deep slow pools where they can see the fly and the fish leave its lie to follow it. In fast water the key is to be able to cover the known lie with pinpoint accuracy as the fly will be whipped away from the fish very quickly. As an example on one Tweed beat that I fish there is a fantastic pool, a large expanse of fast flowing classic fly water in which you have to wade thigh deep to get to the right angle for the fly to fish effectively. One rod who is an excellent salmon fisher and has fished the beat for a long time told me he knows five or six lies in that pool where he expects to get a pull and then covers them accordingly. A novice fishing the pool would not get an offer because he would not present the flies close enough to the lies for long enough before they were whipped away by the current. I think that this real world experience and deep understanding of a beat is probably the single most important aspect of salmon fishing I agree with your comments re retrieving at the end of the cast and in moving last week to a midspey from the shooting heads that I employed early season I realised how far I have been tweaking it back during the early months. My suspicion is that if we concentrated all day and fished each cast out in such a diligent way, then we would catch more salmon. The trouble is that when your casting is going great guns an overwhelming urge to get the line out and bomb out another long cast often takes over....  . Finally, very much like you, I often deploy the downstream mend in exactly the way that you mention. John MaGinlay the ghillie on Kinkardine/Borrowston on the Dee once showed me how effective this technique could be if done properly on the Lower Gannets pool. It can really keep the fly flickering and hovering in the dead water near the home bank as it comes out from the stream if performed well and in a seamless way. cheers Splash |
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Post by paulsewin on Apr 18, 2007 0:20:33 GMT
This also makes me wonder how far a fish will come to take a fly. Splash, this is something I have spoken to Robert Gillespie (guide, casting instructor and fly tier on the Moy) about at some length. He has told me numerous stories of following very competent anglers, many of them close friends, down a pool on heavily fished association water. He has caught fish behind them in the faster water at Swinford. What was he doing that was so different? (He was specifically referring to catching springers.) His basic thought process is that fish lying in fast water cannot be bothered to upend themselves and then turn broadside into a fast current for a normal sized fly fished off a floating line. His solution was to offer a larger image, at least 2 sizes bigger, fished deeper, and therefore below the very fast surface current of the river, using a Wetcel 2, or equivalent. He also stressed to me that when I start catching springers on a regular basis, I will be much more concerned about fishing a fly that is too small rather than worrying about a fly being too big. I don't get the chance to use this on a real run of spring salmon in West Wales, but the same logic does work for sewin in the heads of pools. Something to think about. Paul |
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Post by splash on Apr 18, 2007 6:51:59 GMT
This also makes me wonder how far a fish will come to take a fly. Splash, this is something I have spoken to Robert Gillespie (guide, casting instructor and fly tier on the Moy) about at some length. He has told me numerous stories of following very competent anglers, many of them close friends, down a pool on heavily fished association water. He has caught fish behind them in the faster water at Swinford. What was he doing that was so different? (He was specifically referring to catching springers.) His basic thought process is that fish lying in fast water cannot be bothered to upend themselves and then turn broadside into a fast current for a normal sized fly fished off a floating line. His solution was to offer a larger image, at least 2 sizes bigger, fished deeper, and therefore below the very fast surface current of the river, using a Wetcel 2, or equivalent. He also stressed to me that when I start catching springers on a regular basis, I will be much more concerned about fishing a fly that is too small rather than worrying about a fly being too big. I don't get the chance to use this on a real run of spring salmon in West Wales, but the same logic does work for sewin in the heads of pools. Something to think about. Paul Paul, I would completely with Roberts analysis and conclusions and use both these tactics myself in spring. I think that these tactics and how you approach the lie (interesting to see this dealt with in some more detail in the thread from CLaG on presentation) are the primary sucess factors in Spring salmon fishing. I just wish I could get them to work more often!. Its probably the subject of another detailed thread but along the same lines, fishing a small, even if weighted fly, on a floating or intermediate line makes no sense to me for this game and I have become a firm advocate of a faster sinking line and lighter fly for both spring and back end fishing cheers Splash |
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. Finally, very much like you, I often deploy the downstream mend in exactly the way that you mention. John MaGinlay the ghillie on Kinkardine/Borrowston on the Dee once showed me how effective this technique could be if done properly on the Lower Gannets pool. It can really keep the fly flickering and hovering in the dead water near the home bank as it comes out from the stream if performed well and in a seamless way.