A True Story

[kercock]

John it is almost impossible to police for a start as you well know ,indeed John during one of the times we met you said, of the first eleven fish you had had,eight were killed.,! even after two weeks delay in your opening day!A limit bag may be workable ,perhaps. One fish per day may work,doubt it . what about the" bleeding fish" caught later ?? retained by the owner, tried that one ourselves in the spring, you would not believe the ramifications of that one caused,however IF the board agreed to impliment it then it WOULD work.
BUT, and it is a big but, main men are riparian owners of Timeshare beats on the Lower Tay , Fat chance there then.
Does your beat owner agree with the policies you mention? I never see any hint of him in dispaches. My boss would be very happy to see the Tay run like the Dee which may have played a part in his decision to sell the beat after a year !!!
Who can guess at what the next one's policy will be !
Incidently. yesterday I went into Kerachers with two fish for guests and was told that they had 150 to 200 fish in the freezers waiting to be smoked. One of the smokers had broken down and they were waiting for a part to arrive from Germany ! is it fact ? was it rumour ? or is it B**L S**T We don't know, but someone does !

[Willie The Gillie]

Yes Dennis as you know impossible to police & needs to be set by the TDSFB or it cannot work.
I am sure your right there's no chance for your above reasons of this ever happening on the Tay but I will still be asking the Chairman at this AGM about making 100% C&R the TDSB's recommendation.
The Newtyle beat owners are not fishers (probably like many) so not right to bring them into a debate like this. I know they would not support this if I were to suggest making our beat the only beat on the Tay next season who were 100% C&R. They would I am sure go with it however if the TDSFB made it a recommendation.
I heard last week that Kerachers were no longer smoking salmon and that came from a local salmon smoker - who knows what that story was about maybe I'll phone them tomorrow and find out for sure.
Jock

[victorclem]

The ONLY people who could possibly police 100% catch & release are the ghillies. To implement 100% catch & release, TDSFB first need to make the judgement that the situation is bad enough to justify it, or the ghillies could debate the motion at a TGA meeting, and if they were advocating it, then notice would be taken of it higher up.

If neither the TDSFB or the ghillies think 100% C & R is justified, it can only be because the penny has not yet dropped that salmon catches on the Tay are dire. In that case, it might take another bad year or two, a few ghillies losing their jobs or some owners refusing to pay their dues to change things.

It took the Dee a number of years to make C & R as widespread as it is now, and the same time to convince the ghillies it was necessary. It worked there because the more influential owners were behind it 100%, some ghillies were genuinely staring unemployment in the face, and a lot of fishermen were threatening not to come back if they did not see some sort of strategy being put together. But the DDSFB were unambiguous that 100% C & R was required, they stuck by their arguments, and the culture changed. And the fish came back because their parents had survived to breed when otherwise they would have been chapped on the head.

TDSFB need to take an unambiguous view on the matter. They can consult on the proposal with owners, ghillies and fishermen if they want to, for a year if necessary, but they have to start from that simple statement, "We beleive that the case for 100% C & R is now inevitable on the Tay to reverse the ongoing decline in fish stocks.........."

If TDSFB are not interested, the ghillies have to take the initiative. If they are not interested, it can only be because they are happy enough with things, or they think things will turn around by themselves.

[salmonnut]

victorclem said:

The ONLY people who could possibly police 100% catch & release are the ghillies. To implement 100% catch & release, TDSFB first need to make the judgement that the situation is bad enough to justify it, or the ghillies could debate the motion at a TGA meeting, and if they were advocating it, then notice would be taken of it higher up.

If neither the TDSFB or the ghillies think 100% C & R is justified, it can only be because the penny has not yet dropped that salmon catches on the Tay are dire. In that case, it might take another bad year or two, a few ghillies losing their jobs or some owners refusing to pay their dues to change things.

It took the Dee a number of years to make C & R as widespread as it is now, and the same time to convince the ghillies it was necessary. It worked there because the more influential owners were behind it 100%, some ghillies were genuinely staring unemployment in the face, and a lot of fishermen were threatening not to come back if they did not see some sort of strategy being put together. But the DDSFB were unambiguous that 100% C & R was required, they stuck by their arguments, and the culture changed. And the fish came back because their parents had survived to breed when otherwise they would have been chapped on the head.

TDSFB need to take an unambiguous view on the matter. They can consult on the proposal with owners, ghillies and fishermen if they want to, for a year if necessary, but they have to start from that simple statement, "We beleive that the case for 100% C & R is now inevitable on the Tay to reverse the ongoing decline in fish stocks.........."

If TDSFB are not interested, the ghillies have to take the initiative. If they are not interested, it can only be because they are happy enough with things, or they think things will turn around by themselves.

And in the end people will lose their jobs, the region will lose income from visiting anglers and the Tay will become a barren river. THIS FUGGIN SUCKS

[salmonscotty16lb]

think 1oo % c&r would never work but would be happy with the tag system say 5 tags for every salmon angler and not just for the tay every river in scotland. lets face facts if u kill over 5 fish what are you doing with them? not personal eating? yes i will kill a salmon or two one for me, one for the auld deer across the road who baby sits at short notice, one for my parents thats about it.
how would it work? start of year send away for gill tags give name ect. receive tags and paperwork all killed salmon must be witnessed and recorded. and id provided with paperwork to the witness. there will always be loop holes and cheats but these can be worked on over time.

[victorclem]

A tag scheme or 100% C & R can be made to work if all are agreed something of this nature is required. Neither is easier or harder than the other. It is not a case of having to re-invent the wheel. Others will have found solutions to the problems already.

I think some-one should put this on Agenda for a TGA meeting this winter, and spend the greater part of meeting discussing/ debating the need for such measures.

VC

[tweedsider]

How about. When you have killed one fish you must stop fishing for that day.

[donnieW]

tweedsider said:

How about. When you have killed one fish you must stop fishing for that day.

There would be a lot fewer "bleeders" if that was the case.

[madkeen]

As Victor says it's not rocket science the the other 3 out of the big 4 have managed to increase their stocks through what they think is best for their river. It must be so bloody frustrating for the Gillies who have witnessed this decline and can see for themselves what needs to be done because as an angler it certainly annoys me. What do the board/owners have to lose by trying something new i.e C+R and habitat improvement?

[victorclem]

There have only been 83 fish pass through Pitlochry counter in last 10 days, 8 per day at what should be the peak time of year. With these kind of numbers, anglers would definitely be killing the "capital", not the "interest". Not a lot left to play with in the middle and upper river I would suggest.

VC

[peterkayne]

The tag scheme would be best where people would kill what they catch - this would certainly stop a lot of damaged fish being returned.

For me, I would miss out the spring fishing altogether to conserve these stocks and use my tags when the fish were more plentiful.

[salmonscotty16lb]

that would be my thinking to Peter if something like that happened. end of the day salmon has been a food source for thousands of years and i enjoy the odd one so does members of my family but....... some people must kill 20+ a year? what do they do with them?? big freezer? lots of friends? or sold in local pub? i know where my bet would go. if every salmon angler in GB killed 5 fish thats say 3 for them 2 for friends and family. why be greedy over a fish we all love.

[gotoneon]

ladies and gentlemen, My problem with catch and release is the untruths which may become apparant from egotistic anglers and unscrupulous owners. Many of my chums and I have fished various beats on some of the "big 4". On many occasions other anglers on the beat have reported C & R any number of fish from pools that have been devoid of fish from our observations fishing these pools on same day. However they go in the book. Also the you should have been here last week has been a frequent reply. It may well be bad luck or my/our sad technique but i wonder. Apparently the Spey is really bad as every second fish goes back therefore anybody with a fish has "caught" 2. ther also appears a culture of a landing even when off not that near to the bank. We then arrive at hugely inflated prices for (if your lucky) a day rod. I therefore do question many catches I read about on some rivers. The Tay (not known I agree for C & R) managed to achieve successfully higher catches over past few years. This year dropped but then so did the Dee's spring run (was that due to C & R) and without the unusual summer / backend the Dee's catches would have been woeful. I still believe the problem at sea is the main thing (nets ,environment). I do not advocate any slaughter of fish and I can remember the early eighties being asked to drive up to Tay and help bring fish down the road to SELL. Those days do not impress me. Nowadays I keep around 10-15% Landed. However to advocate a complete C & R then why not stop fishing all together! If the salmon is really that precious leave it alone and don't haul it out of the river for a thrill and maybe take a photo with a cheesy grin and throw it back and hope that it makes it to spawn. Some of this grammar was from an anti-blood sport whom I conversed with a while back so beware the road we travel. IMO I agree the ghillies / owners should set the standard and have signs / info on voluntary catch and release and encourage the angler to THINK. lets get C & R up to around 80% whilst allowing the ghillie to take control of the situations like first fish, biggest fish, bleeders etc. As far as restoring the spring run on Tay which really is what has died are there any plans to get truly spring brood stock in Dochart Lubhair eg and get a hatchery up there to really harness those fish? Is there a political will to let it happen or are the lower beats happy to pander to the big catchers in autumn and therefore are happy with taking broodstock from the lower river which are probably not destined to run any further than the Isla. However, ever the optimist, the salmon are coming back the runs are changing (lack of EARLY springers, later grilse) so maybe it is all out of our control, C & R or not C & R. tight lines all

[Willow Man]

gotoneon said:

On many occasions other anglers on the beat have reported C & R any number of fish from pools that have been devoid of fish from our observations fishing these pools on same day. However they go in the book. Also the you should have been here last week has been a frequent reply. It may well be bad luck or my/our sad technique but i wonder.

If these anglers are local or are spending long periods on the river then their observations may be true. I have seen anglers fish the pools that I fish and have caught nothing. I then follow them through the pool and catch fish.
To see fish in the pools you need to be there at different times throughout the day. I sometimes watch the pools at say 0700 hrs and see fish moving. By 1000 hrs the pool looks like it is empty but the truth is the fish are there.
You can not beat local knowledge when fishing for game fish.
I have watched anglers on private waters fishing for salmon and have not got a clue what to do. They have the correct equipment etc but a cheque book or gold card will not bring the fish to the hook.
The best fishing knowledge for an area is gained over many years with hours and hours of time and effort.

Regards WM

[castslikeaghille]

willow said:

To see fish in the pools you need to be there at different times throughout the day. I sometimes watch the pools at say 0700 hrs and see fish moving. By 1000 hrs the pool looks like it is empty but the truth is the fish are there.

I couldn't agree more with anything I have seen posted on this board than this observation.

[greenbanks]

The ghillies are the heart and lungs of the river.
The owners appear to have no soul though imo, do they have the heart to confront the inevitable and act before its too late and there's no fish,or a need for a ghillie, let the polluters finish the job off and there you have it Eureka a rival for the Thames 100 years ago?Real progress.

The Fish Dee beats finished a fraction under Fish Tays numbers.
Tell me there's no problem on the Tay? There is and it needs to be understood imo.A dead fish cant spawn as far as i know.
You should heed the counsel of Vic Clem who speaks so much more eloquently than most about the problem and has here.Vic spent a lot of time on the Dee helping restore the system and did a fine job as others are still doing as there is no quick fix to those issues but you have to start.Perhaps he can speak on your behalf with united backing from Ghillies.Bear in mind though,"If you think you cant you almost certainly wont! however if you think you can then perhaps you will" Mindsets need to change imo and fast.Lets support the Tay ghillies and if need be set up a fighting fund to publicly "out" the problem,i would gladly donate to it would anyone else?

[Willie The Gillie]

Well said Greenbanks (as always).
Not so sure on the Tay if unscrupulous owners are involved in gotoneon's falsifying catches suggestion, if anything I think its more likely to be the other way round !!
Most of the beat owners on the Tay are pretty much detached from the river scene from what I see but will cringe when the levy (rates) bill comes in !!!
While weather obviously plays a part in what beats catches salmon and at what months I must say that the overall annual picture is really the only one of any significance these days. Comparing the Dee (mainly fly only) to the Tay (all methods) is really not appropriate. What baffles me more than anything is this thing about ocean mortality and all the scaremongering that goes with it. There's alway been ocean mortality from all sorts of things. Those in charge of running the rivers have to have an excuse for everything. I see the Dee's had its best ever season this year and that the Tweed is on track for a treamendous year with 100 a day currently being caught . So how on earth do Tweed & Dee salmon know how to circum-navigate ocean nets and other climatic sea change issues yet out Tay salmon are genetically programmed to either die at sea or swim straight in to ocean nets ?
For C&R to work on the Tay it needs first to be a board recommendation followed then by info in the huts and then by gillies (where physically possible) backing the whole policy up. It has to start with the management though. It could easily result (given time) in only 10 - 20% being killed with everyone happy & plenty stocks to reproduce or future seasons.
Bearing in mind it takes between 10 -20 yrs of effective river management techniques/policies to properly & sustainably turn around a river system thats failing. The question you've then got to ask yourself is what has the Dee or Tweed been doing over that period that is currently giving them the results they are now getting. The answer is PLENTY. Then ask yourself the same about the Tay. EXACTLY. & lets not hear anymore ocean mortality pish. Here's the basics: Big smolt numbers out = Big adult numbers back.
Regards
Jock

[victorclem]

Just to correct Jock on one thing, the timescale for a turn-around can be 5-10 years, not 10-20, but only if you can be decisive from the outset.......

VC

[castslikeaghille]

WTG

Don't look to the Tweed for evidence of a well run recovering river. In real terms the Tweed catches are going backwards; just not as fast as the Tay. The Tweed figures are one of the most disgraceful examples of smoke and mirrors trapping people who have so much cash they are careless with it. The Tweed catches are being maintained because more and more rods are fishing more beats more often. Yet the average catch per beat is still a shadow of what it was 20 years ago despite all the fishing pressure.

I have said it before and will say it again, no river is in more desperate need of a major rejuvenation programme than the Tweed (at least it's not too late to have a material short term impact unlike the Tay). However, while vested interests continue to make millions while putting back the minimum through the Levy it won't change. Give it another 5 years and the Tweed will start to become as desperate as the Tay.

Regards

CLaG

[Willie The Gillie]

Exactly Victor that's why I said 10 -20 years given the anti-TWCP committee and the size of the Tay's many catchments.
Clag - I honestly thought alot of work had been done on the Tweed and for a long time. (recent T&S article?). 97 miles of fencing etc etc etc........... My friend is a bailif down there and he used to work on the Tay earlier this year as hatchery manager and he still can't believe the difference when he looks at the river daily. Surely the levy on the Tweed is the highest at £65 per fish caught which is often spoken about by the Tay board as they only get £35 per fish. Maybe that one of the reasons why the beat owners charge more ?
Jock