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Post by williegunn on Apr 5, 2007 21:53:14 GMT
Jim I kow you're a Weegie but what is a buftie?
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Post by Fruin on Apr 5, 2007 21:57:18 GMT
Good post Clag. You are to be commended for taking the time and making the effort to share your knowledge. Parts of the content maybe stating the obvious to some of the bufties but I am sure it will be appreciated by a lot of others. Keep them coming. Tight Lines from the Fish. Jim, Well said. I think that it has to be recognised that there are anglers of all levels that view this site. Stating the obvious is not an issue, as it is only obvious if you already know it. Derisory comments made to people who take time and effort to pass on valuable knowledge will only deter people from visiting the site. Half the stuff I read in fishing magazines seems to be stating the obvious, but sometimes it is nice to hear different views on the obvious. Keep up the good work CLaG, I'm sure there are many members that appreciate it; I certainly do. |
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Post by tyneandrew on Apr 5, 2007 22:00:09 GMT
Jim I kow you're a Weegie but what is a buftie? Malcolm - try googling it and taking the urban dictionary link |
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Post by williegunn on Apr 5, 2007 22:09:59 GMT
I hope Jim was not using the urban dictionary defination when refering to me.
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Post by tyneandrew on Apr 5, 2007 22:15:19 GMT
Hope not - quite insulting ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Post by castlikeaghille on Apr 5, 2007 22:40:41 GMT
Good post Clag. You are to be commended for taking the time and making the effort to share your knowledge. Parts of the content maybe stating the obvious to some of the bufties but I am sure it will be appreciated by a lot of others. Keep them coming. Tight Lines from the Fish. Jim, Well said. I think that it has to be recognised that there are anglers of all levels that view this site. Stating the obvious is not an issue, as it is only obvious if you already know it. Derisory comments made to people who take time and effort to pass on valuable knowledge will only deter people from visiting the site. Half the stuff I read in fishing magazines seems to be stating the obvious, but sometimes it is nice to hear different views on the obvious. Keep up the good work CLaG, I'm sure there are many members that appreciate it; I certainly do. Hey folks - thanks for all the comments that have come in on the thread, particluarly the constructive ones  I'd like to make two quick points. Firstly, the comments I pass on are mostly the distilled experience of a gang of 15 fishers (plus another 10 from time to time). That doesn't make 'us' right, but it doesn't mean I am one voice and experience alone, and the aim is to get the discussion and ideas flowing. Secondly, I am due to post a thread on presentation and angle next. Is this what people would like to read about? Regardez CLaG |
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Post by exerod on Apr 5, 2007 23:08:16 GMT
A lot of these minor tactics involve getting the fly down to the salmon, “push the fly in its face” as CLaG puts it. Would it not make sense to try do this under all conditions. A lot of the standard down and across relies on the fish leaving its lie and coming and getting the fly, surely it would be better to give it to them? When upstream spinning in small rivers I’ve often seen fish totally ignore a spinner that is two feet below the surface, yet if you sink it to their level the same fish will follow and take. The one thing these fish don’t want to do most of the time is move vertically, does the same apply on bigger rivers.
I know plenty of fish get taken on floating line and small flies but are there lots more potential takers down there thinking "bugger that, I'm not going all the way up there just for a stoats tail"
Also, any thoughts from CLaG and the gang (or anyone else) on the Air Pressure Theory....
Andy
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Post by jimthefish on Apr 5, 2007 23:24:26 GMT
I hope Jim was not using the urban dictionary defination when refering to me. Absolutely not and please be assured that I did not refer directly to any particular individual. I need to be more careful about using that word in future after reading the urban dictionary version ! Apologies for using an inapproriate word. In the past we used it to mean "an old fart". |
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Post by castlikeaghille on Apr 6, 2007 6:36:57 GMT
ClaG excuse my ignorance,is the j curve the same as a big upstream mend? given the sunny conditions promised for the weekend i feel some experimentation coming on! thanks The J-Curve was Francis Grant's prefered way of presenting small flies (usually two) on the floating line. In summary, he wanted the flies moving as slowly as possible relative to the speed of the water as he believed this was unnatural and hence would trigger a reaction from salmon. To summarise the J-Curve. 1) Cast as square as you can across the pool 2) Immediately throw as big an upstream mend as possible 3) This will create an up side down J. If you inverted this and imagined the top of the J as being where the line leaves your rod tip this is the shape of your fly line on the water with the flies and the cast always down stream of the end of the J (Grant typically fished 17' leaders) 4) The natural force of water tries to flatten out the J, so Grant advocated you kept mending to keep the J profile until the line is below you. 5) Grant would often mend the line 6 or 7 times in the course of fishing out one cast (as do we) I was going to provide some observations on this in the next thread. A couple of points: 1) It keeps the flies fluttering in front of the fish in a different way to the down and across single mend army. 2) During the course of the day your flies will be in the water where salmon are much longer because of all the mending - the law of probability should then take over - hopefully  Regardez CLaG p.s. It is deadly on the Dee |
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Post by robson on Apr 6, 2007 6:52:50 GMT
I said the difficulty is when the sun shines directly downstream - which is, of course, when the issue arises because salmon, with no eyelids, sit facing upstream. Ain't the eyes are on the side of fish's body, not in front like we have. So does it really matter where the sun comes from? And when casting 45 degrees the fly comes from the side too.  |
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Post by castlikeaghille on Apr 6, 2007 6:59:35 GMT
A lot of these minor tactics involve getting the fly down to the salmon, “push the fly in its face” as CLaG puts it. Would it not make sense to try do this under all conditions. A lot of the standard down and across relies on the fish leaving its lie and coming and getting the fly, surely it would be better to give it to them? When upstream spinning in small rivers I’ve often seen fish totally ignore a spinner that is two feet below the surface, yet if you sink it to their level the same fish will follow and take. The one thing these fish don’t want to do most of the time is move vertically, does the same apply on bigger rivers. I know plenty of fish get taken on floating line and small flies but are there lots more potential takers down there thinking "bugger that, I'm not going all the way up there just for a stoats tail" Also, any thoughts from CLaG and the gang (or anyone else) on the Air Pressure Theory.... Andy On air pressure I think I'd like to stand back and allow others to comment first. Your point on baits presented down catching more fish, IMO , is absolutely correct. If all I and the gang wanted to do is catch as many fuishies as possible that is where we would focus our efforts, but we tend to reserve it for times when it is the sane course of action. There is a simple reason for this, at least for me (and please forgive this piece of self indulgence). That is, it's hard to think of anything in salmon fishing more heart in the mouth than seeing something like this Dee Springer (20lbs sea liced rtnd) head and tailing over a size 12 fly...the pause, the draw, raise the rod and the strange feeling of utter joy and fear as you feel the weight of a real lunker, that you've now hooked and might just land...now that as Paul Daniels might say is magic. Regardez good fella CLaG  |
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Post by macd on Apr 6, 2007 8:41:49 GMT
clag, dont want to rain on that big old parade you got going... to be clear did the fish in the pic go back in the water? if so, wrap on the knuckles for you. if its going back dont piss about with stylised pics. keep it in the in the water, hooks out, release. if the fish is going back- put it back asap, its not a toy. if you want to teach, respect for the fish is no1 lesson. its a belter by the way ross |
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salmondan
Member
Fishy fishy, elusive fishy
Posts: 289
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Post by salmondan on Apr 6, 2007 10:32:13 GMT
Good post Clag. You are to be commended for taking the time and making the effort to share your knowledge. Parts of the content maybe stating the obvious to some of the bufties but I am sure it will be appreciated by a lot of others. Appreciated very much by peeps like me, keep 'em coming CLaG. Nicely focused posts in this series, certainly beats having to dredge through the reams of filler to get to the point in the "established" fishing books I've read. Looking forward to the next instalment. |
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Post by castlikeaghille on Apr 6, 2007 10:40:04 GMT
clag, dont want to rain on that big old parade you got going... to be clear did the fish in the pic go back in the water? if so, wrap on the knuckles for you. if its going back dont piss about with stylised pics. keep it in the in the water, hooks out, release. if the fish is going back- put it back asap, its not a toy. if you want to teach, respect for the fish is no1 lesson. its a belter by the way ross Thank you for the sermon Rev Rossco  It's a fair point ma man but yer jumpin' in a little long on accusations and a bit short on the facts. Oh well, I'm getting used to having to constantly justify myself on here. So just for the record - sigh - (feel free to leave now folks): Normally I net them, unhook them in the maclean net, weigh them, quick snap to prove it's caught. (Sad we have to do this to prove we do what we say but hey - salmon fishing is just like the rest of the world, full of small minded, petty jealous people) and put them straight back - so unless someone is there 99% of my photos are half fish and net in 3/4 focus - evidence (sigh again) - but not good copy! Your views on how to land and release a fuish are fair, but simply not applicable in every circumstance without sometimes having to play a fuish to an exhausted standstill. And that good fella is one of the biggest causes of fish stress goin' - still if that's your preferred method it's your freedom to do so, but you should qualify yerself or at least point out the risk to people reading what you say before, dare I say it, wrapping the CLaG over the knuckles  Meanwhile, back with that fish I had real trouble getting its head up stream to come back down into the net as the water was 2 1/4' - so, not wanting to fa*ny around and play it to a standstill to try and unhook it in deeper water with faster current, I got in behind it and lifted it horizontal cradled with both hands (wet) onto the wet (see photo) grass. And, I'll be honest that one I wanted a photo of - who on this forum wouldn't - if you are here feel free to cast the next stone. If I'd beached it or hand tailed it I would have dragged it through two foot of sand or picked up by the tail, main non, mais non. I unhooked it and put the rod down next to the fish for scale took a photo (got lucky because the fish sat still) and put it straight back. After about ten seconds it swam off strongly - fish out the water for 10 - 15 secs. Not text book, but as these ones come along once in a blue moon I hope a little bit of responsible latitude would be permitted (but obviously not). The photo is not 'stylised' nor did I 'piss' around with said fish. Feel free to ask David Gibbons he watched from the other bank. We talked about it afterwards, and David is the first to come down like a ton of bricks on any perceived mis-handling of fish! A fish isn't a toy, but occasionally it is a trophy worth carefully recording. Yours aye CLaG P.S Rossco, I once spent two days with Sam Holland, one of the the most successful fish (trout) rearers ever. You might be very interested in his views on fish handling, fish stress and mortality rates - I think you would be horrified to see things he did, but he did them all day every day and as it was his business to keep fish alive to sell (and artificial rainbows tend to be more prone to stress than wild salmon). So I guess he was perfectly confident in what he was doing - even if I wasn't! |
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Post by castlikeaghille on Apr 6, 2007 11:23:55 GMT
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say
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Post by say on Apr 6, 2007 11:36:56 GMT
Macd,
I try and apply your methods of C&R but I'm sure you will be surprised how many Dee fish are not handled in this manner.
I'm sure you'll find that a high percentage of Salmon caught find themselves bankside out of the water whilst being unhooked.
At Sluie a few weeks back I did exactly the method you quoted and just as I was about to pass the fish to my Dad for a quick pic, it kicked it's tail and disappeared into the depths. As you will appreciate my Dad had a point to make. Anyhow he managed another within an hour and we got a pic of that one.
SAY
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Post by splash on Apr 6, 2007 16:05:05 GMT
Thanks to all who have taken an interest in this post. Here are my replies to the questions raised: Dunbar - good point on N-Ord singles The trebbles you see are no bigger than size 16. Withoot gettin' into all the debate about how to hook fish on mini hooks, it is hard enough to hold enough a 2SW salmon on the trebble that size never mind a single X-Man - this is a case by case basis. However, I'd generally say no because on these days cloud cover tends to be about for twa seconds RobM - we use FC's of 8 grms or No5 Mepps for shallow pool work. Hence there is one very small point of impact on the water (and the vibrations). A flee line crashed and dug oot of the stick then sent crashing into the calm is creating points of impact over a huge area of water. Jolly - hey fella - ye cannae blame the CLaG ramblin's for whit mae nae b' happenin' in das beast with twa backs ;D ;D ;D Fruin - we speak the same language JKB - your tale doesn't surprise me - good work fella Windcutter - I'll come back to you on that one Splash - listenning as we speak to Arcade Fire's 'Neon Bible' - is Win Butler the best male vocal in contemporary music? Probably a good shout especially if you like Springsteen and David Byrne. And should we start a thread on this site as to whether Intervention is "The" record of 2007 - hhhmm probably better to join the global debate elsewhere on that one pop-pickers 7F/er - in the current climate of ludicrous hyper-inflation for Scottish salmon fishing I'd make the fly only rule illegal  Regardez CLaG CLaG - Can't believe you can include the aforementioned Mr Byrne, a true innovator in the world of contemporary music and a sun of the rock to boot, with the vastly overated and overhyped Springsteen. Man, ye'll be comparing Sages with Loops next ;D |
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Post by barkingcollie on Apr 6, 2007 17:13:18 GMT
Superb stuff in here, especially for those of us honest enough to say we're still learning. I'll try to apply as much of this as I can at Delvine tomorrow (don't laugh) and maybe even on the Annan on Monday (stop tittering at the back of the class). As the thread started as an approach to difficult conditions, I think I'm going to test the content in the perfect locations and with the minimum of initial ability this weekend.
Well done CLAG, not many of us would have bothered to take the time to spell out the practicalities like you have.
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Post by paulsewin on Apr 6, 2007 18:34:03 GMT
Hi Clag,
You've done most of the hard work on this but I would like to add a few observations.
1. Wind colder than water temperature. I agree in general but it is a help if the water temperature is up around 65.
2. No Irish shrimp flies in your fly selection. This really should be part of your armoury when water levels are low.
3. Two waking tube flies fished together. The first time I met Robert Gillespie on the Moy, he demonstrated how he fishes these. The river was dead low, clear with a brilliant sunshine on a baking hot August afternoon. He still got six grilse to rise to the flies in about 20 minutes. you had to see it to believe it. He has modified his hooking technique since then.
PM me and I'll explain the full set up for Irish shrimps and waking tubes, as I was taught by Robert.
4. You mentioned using fast sinking lines in low water conditions. Don't you find it irritates the fish? I've had sewin literally jumping over the line in glides and tails. An intermediate line does upset them as much - use a short fast sinking leader if you want the extra depth.
5. Totally agree with you about not fishing deep for fish all the time. On the West Wales rivers I fish, I seen too many fish move out of taking lies and drop down into deep polls because a "Heron" has bombed the living daylights out of them with a Flying C.
Better to invite the fish to the party just below the surface first and pick of the willing takers then go deeper if nothing else interests them.
6. Unhooking fish in the net. I fish the Tweed in February, Hendersyde, and I don't know how the ghillies (boatmen) could ever unhook the fish in the water. I like to get my fish in quickly, net it in water at least knee deep, lift it out, photograph it quickly and put it back. I try to avoid letting the fish feel the gravel in shallow water because this usually means another long run and a very tired fish.
Trying to unhook a fresh fish in the net is a recipe for disaster. You stand a good chance of hooking yourself and re-hooking the fish several times before you finally get the hook out.
7. Another option you may want to look at for very low water is using a plastic mini-tube, no more than 1/2 inch, but fished off an intermediate line. I've been using this for years for sewin. PM me and I'll explain why I think the intermediate is so important and I'll tell you how I fish it.
A friend of mine has used this on the Deveron and Dee for a number of years now and has caught a lot of sea trout in low water daylight conditions
Cheers,
Paul
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bandon
Member
I'm sure that was a take
Posts: 25
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Post by bandon on Apr 6, 2007 19:35:33 GMT
Let the dog See the rabbit i would be very interested to read the technique you use great posts food for thought bandon |
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I'd like to make two quick points. 
It's a fair point ma man but yer jumpin' in a little long on accusations and a bit short on the facts. Oh well, I'm getting used to having to constantly justify myself on here. So just for the record - sigh - (feel free to leave now folks):
