Conditions

[castlikeaghille]

paulsewin said:

Hi Clag,

You've done most of the hard work on this but I would like to add a few observations.

1. Wind colder than water temperature. I agree in general but it is a help if the water temperature is up around 65.

2. No Irish shrimp flies in your fly selection. This really should be part of your armoury when water levels are low.

3. Two waking tube flies fished together. The first time I met Robert Gillespie on the Moy, he demonstrated how he fishes these. The river was dead low, clear with a brilliant sunshine on a baking hot August afternoon. He still got six grilse to rise to the flies in about 20 minutes. you had to see it to believe it. He has modified his hooking technique since then.

PM me and I'll explain the full set up for Irish shrimps and waking tubes, as I was taught by Robert.

4. You mentioned using fast sinking lines in low water conditions. Don't you find it irritates the fish? I've had sewin literally jumping over the line in glides and tails. An intermediate line does upset them as much - use a short fast sinking leader if you want the extra depth.

5. Totally agree with you about not fishing deep for fish all the time. On the West Wales rivers I fish, I seen too many fish move out of taking lies and drop down into deep polls because a "Heron" has bombed the living daylights out of them with a Flying C.

Better to invite the fish to the party just below the surface first and pick of the willing takers then go deeper if nothing else interests them.

6. Unhooking fish in the net. I fish the Tweed in February, Hendersyde, and I don't know how the ghillies (boatmen) could ever unhook the fish in the water. I like to get my fish in quickly, net it in water at least knee deep, lift it out, photograph it quickly and put it back. I try to avoid letting the fish feel the gravel in shallow water because this usually means another long run and a very tired fish.

Trying to unhook a fresh fish in the net is a recipe for disaster. You stand a good chance of hooking yourself and re-hooking the fish several times before you finally get the hook out.

7. Another option you may want to look at for very low water is using a plastic mini-tube, no more than 1/2 inch, but fished off an intermediate line. I've been using this for years for sewin. PM me and I'll explain why I think the intermediate is so important and I'll tell you how I fish it.

A friend of mine has used this on the Deveron and Dee for a number of years now and has caught a lot of sea trout in low water daylight conditions

Cheers,

Paul

I Don't Know Ya Fella

....but you are a fuishier. With no offence intended to all those who have entered in good spirit into the debate on this thread (and please keep doing so because it is much appreciated, valued and needed becasue it says you want to open your mind), this reply is sweet; the kind of detailed, informed and progressive response that can take the debate on this forum to the top of the tree.

Non Tweed wearing readers of this site pay careful attention to what this Welsh Sea Trout has said; these observations suggest a man who has actually left the palatial hut and walked the walk.

Regardez

CLaG

[windcutter]

CLaG
Thanks for the info re the j thingy,I,ll give it a go when conditions suit.I'm on the dee in may and june so will give it a go then for sure.
A bientot

[castlikeaghille]

windcutter said:

CLaG
Thanks for the info re the j thingy,I,ll give it a go when conditions suit.I'm on the dee in may and june so will give it a go then for sure.
A bientot

A pleasure. Good luck with your sessions. I am only repeating someone elses' good wisdom. If you can beg, borrow or steal a copy of Francis Grant's Salmon Fly Fishing The Dynamics Approach I suggest it may give you some interesting perspective on how you might approach the Dee.

Regardez

CLaG

[splash]

windcutter said:

CLaG
Thanks for the info re the j thingy,I,ll give it a go when conditions suit.I'm on the dee in may and june so will give it a go then for sure.
A bientot

Windcutter, I'd agree with CLaG. The Grant book is quite exceptional. Some people find it controversial but for me it really is the only book on salmon fishing that has reasonated with the way I want to approach the game. Where are you fishing the Dee in April and May ? PM me and I can help you find a copy as its out of stock at Amazon etc I believe

cheers

Splash

[salmonking]

I Don't Know Ya Fella

....but you are a fuishier. With no offence intended to all those who have entered in good spirit into the debate on this thread (and please keep doing so because it is much appreciated, valued and needed becasue it says you want to open your mind), this reply is sweet; the kind of detailed, informed and progressive response that can take the debate on this forum to the top of the tree.

Non Tweed wearing readers of this site pay careful attention to what this Welsh Sea Trout has said; these observations suggest a man who has actually left the palatial hut and walked the walk.

Regardez

CLaG

CLaG, a fuishier who uses an intermediate line ...i thought these lines were for people from the dark ages???

[/quote]

[castlikeaghille]

salmonking said:

I Don't Know Ya Fella

....but you are a fuishier. With no offence intended to all those who have entered in good spirit into the debate on this thread (and please keep doing so because it is much appreciated, valued and needed becasue it says you want to open your mind), this reply is sweet; the kind of detailed, informed and progressive response that can take the debate on this forum to the top of the tree.

Non Tweed wearing readers of this site pay careful attention to what this Welsh Sea Trout has said; these observations suggest a man who has actually left the palatial hut and walked the walk.

Regardez

CLaG

CLaG, a fuishier who uses an intermediate line ...i thought these lines were for people from the dark ages???

[/quote]

Note PSwein is using micro tubes on them in direct response to my observations that Vikings were reportedly using microtubes on sinking lines and we should pay attention.

This is a world apart from using the Dark Ages Valley Crawford Washing Line - intemediate with poly tip and ally's shrimp - why does anyone in their right mind make casting/fishing misery for themsleves with this set up in this multi-tip day and age? It's as technologically and ergonomicalay advanced as a steel rod, IMO. But if that's what floats your boat it's a free country! ;D

[williegunn]

Oh dear oh dear, I have been down these roads, I used to have intermediates of various densities 1"/sec 1.25"/sec etc slow sinkers fast sinkers, then I was seduced to the sunk tip darkside, I tried it for two seasons then decided that it messed up the casting so much I had to return to the empire. A type 6 sunk tip requires rolling to the surface same as an intermediate, there is no way you can control the lift, the most important part of a Speycast, unless the line is all on the surface. Now I fish two intermediates Ian Gordon and Carron, easy effortless controlled casts, with depth control.

[elwyman]

No doubt we'll have a new member calling himself Darth Vader contributing to this thread. ;D

On a more sensible note, the 10' tips on the Monteith line are quite easy to lift to the surface, much easier that 15' tips.

[williegunn]

elwyman said:

No doubt we'll have a new member calling himself Darth Vader contributing to this thread. ;D

Darth Wader, a well known German fisher.

[paulsewin]

Hi Steve,

I wasn't trying to tease anyone. It was just that it would be a lot to type out if no-one was interested. Clag started the thread so I thought I'd sound him out first. Give me a couple of days and I'll get the stuff typed out.

Willie Gunn - I think we fish very different types of river both in size and general character. The rivers I fish rarely require 30 yards of line out, even in good water. I find that an intermediate line with a fast polytip very easy to lift off the water because I rarely have the equivalent of a full head on a spey line out.

When I am fishing at longer range I would rather sacrifice the ease of casting for effective fishing.

A lot of the places I fish have very narrow taking strips tight to the far bank. A wetcell II or equivalent is pulled out of the taking srtip before it has fished at the correct depth. It is even worse in low water because what little flow the river has is very focussed.

A sink tip is even worse because the floating section catches the current and drags the tip away from the lie. Continued mending will disturb the lie.

The way I solved this problem was initially motivated by my desire to stop my indifferent casting ruining my chances. I cast square across the river perhaps 3-4 yards above the lie. I would then throw a big mend directly upstream as soon as the tip gripped the water. By holding the rod tip high I could keep most of the line out of the current.

Next I would allow the fly to drift down to the lie. When in position, I place the intermediate on the current and allow it to draw the fly away slowly. Two casts per lie maximum and usually 20 minutes of stealth to get into position without frightening the fish, usually from a position 50 - 70 yards above.

The fly drifts back towards the fish, sinking slowly. As soon as the line tightens, the fly lifts in the water, pauses for a momemt and draws away slowly. All takes happen within 18 inches of the line moving across the stream.

Of course, if someone has an easier way of doing this, I would love to know.

Steve, this is basically how I fish mini-tubes, with or without a polytip. It is superb for sewin in low water AS LONG AS YOU DON'T FRIGHTEN THEM FIRST.

It may be dark ages stuff since Alexander Grant was doing the same thing with ungreased silk lines years ago. The difference was he used a very light silk line "tip" which fished higher in the water than the belly. He was worried about cavitation bubbles forming around the grease on a greased line. Beg/borrow or steal a copy of Fine and Far Off, Jock Scott, for details.

[williegunn]

paulsewin said:

Willie Gunn - I think we fish very different types of river both in size and general character. The rivers I fish rarely require 30 yards of line out, even in good water. I find that an intermediate line with a fast polytip very easy to lift off the water because I rarely have the equivalent of a full head on a spey line out.

When I am fishing at longer range I would rather sacrifice the ease of casting for effective fishing.

Correct the intermediate is the line of choice.

[robmason]

The IG fast sinking line casts very nicely off a short line with my B&W Powerlite 13'er.

[castlikeaghille]

steve said:

salmonking said:

I Don't Know Ya Fella

....but you are a fuishier. With no offence intended to all those who have entered in good spirit into the debate on this thread (and please keep doing so because it is much appreciated, valued and needed becasue it says you want to open your mind), this reply is sweet; the kind of detailed, informed and progressive response that can take the debate on this forum to the top of the tree.

Non Tweed wearing readers of this site pay careful attention to what this Welsh Sea Trout has said; these observations suggest a man who has actually left the palatial hut and walked the walk.

Regardez

CLaG

CLaG, a fuishier who uses an intermediate line ...i thought these lines were for people from the dark ages???

Clag, go on ,your killing me , explain why intermediates are so 900 AD ish

Steve[/quote]

Ok as you ask:

An intermediate is a one dimensional line. Once you have cast it you have only three options for varying the presentation. You can choose to mend it up down, much, little and that is it. Once it is down and in the water your only other two options (other than actually walking up or down the bank) are to let out more line (notoriously difficult to manage and control any sunk line because sometimes you can't see where the main line is) or you can hand line in. That is important because you may want to hang a fly over a lie. PaulSewin has an interesting approach to that in small rivers which I sugest he opine on.

Then there is Crawford's Washing Line. Adding a polly leader (= lead weight) to the end of a full line completely throws the balance off the line. This makes turnover and presentation at anything over 25 yards almost impossible because the poly leader is crashing the loop as it unfolds. I used to fish the CWL on an 18' Diawa CF98 overhead casting and pure power can make this set up work upto 30 yards or so. As for speycasting it - the agony.

This applies to both the intermediate and the CWL. Think of all the energy you will waste during the day roll casting to the surface soemtimes two or three times with the CWL. A tired body is usually a tired brain that switches into autopilot mode.

Now further down this thread I notice someone talking about sunk tips. I agree the old sunk tip is more Dark Ages than the intermediate. What I am talking about is the new generation of mutli-tips which are chalk and cheese.

Let's cut straight to the chase and examine the Jocky Menteith. Design wise this has taken the good work that was started with Mid-Spey Multi and brought it on in leaps and bounds. First of all with 5 heads in 10' and 5 in 15 you have about 40 different variations if you want. Now while there is a trap of spending all day changing combinations people who regularly fish the same beats will quickly work out which combinations work best either on the beat as a whole or in different pools. Of course you are not just replacing the intermediate but a whole range of other sunk lines and floaters with poly leaders.

So the Multi tip trounces the Intermediate on basic versatility. Let's look at presentation. Right, a multi-tip can match any presentation effected created by the Int and CWL that I can think of. But that is just the beginning. Where it walks all over the intermediate is the ability to multi mend. Also you know exactly where your line is so if you are trying to create any presentational effect (other than by mending e.g. handlining or line feeding) you can do it at exactly the right time. Real masters can do this with a sunk line on a big river but they are a very rare breed indeed; I know of only one.

As a practical application of what I am talking about think of any pool you know where there is a strip of ten - 15 yards of deep dead water between you and the current. So you can't wade it. The easiest and most effective way of fishing this is the upstream downstream mend. Cast your line square and throw the biggest upstream mend you can. Then watch carefully that part of the line in the current comes round while the belly on the dead water sits almost static. At the point where the line has come to the edge of the current throw the biggest downstream mend you can and watch how the line continues to fish another good few yards. As it finally starts to ease at the fishing end you can start figure of eighting or maybe line stripping as the flee finally comes into the slack.

So this deadly tactic requires you to be able to see your line at all times and to be able to mend the line half way through the swing. You simply can't do this with an intermediate and it is great entertainment watching died in the wool inty's try. For those who know it, a perfect example is the Home Pool at Park.

Next - castability. The old sunk tip was like casting a folding ruler - no argument. With anything more than a basic type 6 tip on a multi tip its heading the same way. Why? the answer is the sudden change from floating to sinking. Not only do you have a sudden change of density but you have created a hinge. So what is different about mutli tips. The difference, started by Rio is the insertion of an intermediate compensator section (Jocks line is better IMO because you have the choice of a lot more compensators although rio have started to come back with Skaggit sections). This has three main impacts:

1) You graduate the density change floater, int, sink over 25 feet not ten feet of one to the other bang
2) You dramatically reduce the angle of the hinge in the water
3) It creates sunk line profiles the same as Grant described and made at home.

Most important of all these lines cast and turnover like a single profile line. The Jocky Menteith has done this even further. Listen to all the people on this site who rave about it's castability.

Further down this thread a commentator says you have to roll a type 6 tip to spey cast. That is correct some of the time, although generally more so when you are deep wading. Off the bank that is not generally an issue. However, that advice is incorrect when you apply the compensator. You can lift the whole Rio Mid Spey with a type six tip and intermediate compensator without rolling on the 16' European. You can do the same with the Jocky Menteith on the 15' TCR for most of the combinations I have tried. The TCR struggles with 25' of Type 6 without a roll, but he European 16' can handle it. On the 15' TCR you can now fish the Mid Spey without a roll cast on the type six head provided you use the shorter skaggit cheater compensator. I can't comment on how these lines fish on other rods.

And the point, repeated from above, is I am not wasting time and energy roll casting between casts.

Anyway, if you still think intermediate is providing the range of options you need on mid - big rivers and you like fishing with it then fine. For all the reasons sated above I have not used my Lee Wulff's for three seasons now, and that used to be my favourite line.

Later dude

CLaG

[williegunn]

castlikeaghille said:

And the point, repeated from above, is I am not wasting time and energy roll casting between casts.

Anyway, if you still think intermediate is providing the range of options you need on mid - big rivers and you like fishing with it then fine. For all the reasons sated above I have not used my Lee Wulff's for three seasons now, and that used to be my favourite line.

Later dude

CLaG

If you are wasting energy repositioning your line after lifting it to the surface you are doing something wrong, it should be an effortless procedure.
Sunktips have their place, when fishing from the deep to the shallow but they will never ever get down to where a sinker gets; the current acting on the tip lifts it as the line swings round.

Your mention of Skagit lines reminds me of a well known Swede who was fishing at Craigellechie yesterday and lost a fish as the current got hold of the Skagit rope he was using and soon drowned the line, had he been using an intermediate he would have had a nice Spey springer.

The Lee Wulff line was always difficult to cast, I cannot think of anyone who could cast it with the belly at the tip of the rod, at hand yes, but not at the rod tip. Try the Carron from the line pool you will be converted back to intermediates

[elwyman]

williegunn said:

castlikeaghille said:

And the point, repeated from above, is I am not wasting time and energy roll casting between casts.

Anyway, if you still think intermediate is providing the range of options you need on mid - big rivers and you like fishing with it then fine. For all the reasons sated above I have not used my Lee Wulff's for three seasons now, and that used to be my favourite line.

Later dude

CLaG

Your mention of Skagit lines reminds me of a well known Swede who was fishing at Craigellechie yesterday and lost a fish as the current got hold of the Skagit rope he was using and soon drowned the line, had he been using an intermediate he would have had a nice Spey springer.

Not Turbo man himself?

Signs of fish then - that's cheered me up before the long drive north tomorrow!

[elwyman]

paulsewin said:

Hi Steve,


The way I solved this problem was initially motivated by my desire to stop my indifferent casting ruining my chances. I cast square across the river perhaps 3-4 yards above the lie. I would then throw a big mend directly upstream as soon as the tip gripped the water. By holding the rod tip high I could keep most of the line out of the current.

Next I would allow the fly to drift down to the lie. When in position, I place the intermediate on the current and allow it to draw the fly away slowly. Two casts per lie maximum and usually 20 minutes of stealth to get into position without frightening the fish, usually from a position 50 - 70 yards above.

The fly drifts back towards the fish, sinking slowly. As soon as the line tightens, the fly lifts in the water, pauses for a momemt and draws away slowly. All takes happen within 18 inches of the line moving across the stream.

This sounds very similar to a technique Steve uses to winkle out sea trout from a deep hole on a bush lined run at night. Done with a floater and fast sink braid though.

Me, I've lost too many flies in the bushes, so I leave that spot to Steve. ;D

[castlikeaghille]

williegunn said:

castlikeaghille said:

Sunktips have their place, when fishing from the deep to the shallow but they will never ever get down to where a sinker gets; the current acting on the tip lifts it as the line swings round.

..you will be converted back to intermediates

If you are refering to the old one piece 10 ft sink tips this is basically correct. If you are talking about a 25' headed multi tip sectional line this is not correct on two counts.

1) As you can continue to mend the line and hence hold position relative to river so the fly and tip will fish a fly far deeper than a full sinking line. e.g. An intermediate and type 6 will take a fly far deeper than an old Wet II if you make it do it. A type eight tip will have you fishing at about full Hi - Di level if you fish it accordingly. Thereafter, if you need more depth you are into Teeny, and better still shooting head land anyway.

2) Yes there is some lift on the dangle. However, this is far less pronounced than on the old sunk tip. In any event it is not an issue if you know how to freeline. A tactic the Vikings are very good at.

I sometimes use an intermediate head for Collie work, but as a full line it has long been redundant. Never say never, but I can't think of any reason why I'd go back to a full intermediate or Wet II for that matter; salmon fishing is hard enough without creating your own limitations.

Regardez

CLaG

P.S As you can't upstream/downstream mend with an Intermediate what do you use in its place?

[castlikeaghille]

[/quote] There is no doubt that given the choice of either a decent multi-
tip or an intermediate in most circumstances the multi is the one to go for .I suspect the inter is a niche alternative to a full floater eg when the surface current is complex. Clag, I think you blow it a wee bit with the quasi eulogy in respect of the mid spey, a very average line due to its indifferent weight distribution. The Monteith is a significant product as IME it is the first line tha tis both excellent for fishing and casting.
As always, thanks for taking the time to provide a comprehensive rationale.

Steve
[/quote]

The summary description of the Jocky M is fitting. Not sure I was eulogising about the Rio quasi or otherwise However, I do find it outperforms the Jocky M in a gale, especially now we have sorted the weight distribution problems with the compensator. BTW we use one size lighter of Skagit Cheater than the main line. With thanks to Collie Dog for taking all the time to read all the weight data on the Rio site only to discover they seem to have got it wrong as usual when applying the AFTM rating

These have only just come in the country so not sure if you have tried them. If not, if the opportunity arises I think you might be pleasantly surprised

Regardez good fella

CLaG

[castlikeaghille]

steve said:

castlikeaghille said:

rationale.



[/quote
Clag, hi , a bit unclear what surgery your performing on the M/S , could you explain a bitmore please?

1) The current mid spey tips has an intermediate compensator section which I think, off the tip of my head is, is about 12' long

2) Many people think, and CLaG doesn't disagre this is a very heavy line for its AFTM description

3) So how do you reduce the weight of the line? [Now] Easy, replace the exising intermediate compnsator with one have the length and one AFTM less becuase Rio always over egg the pudding

4) Acquire pack of Skagit Cheaters in AFTM 9/10 rather than 10/11 (Fawcetts have them). Cost is £25, but by inserting the 5' intermediate compensator you have created an enhanced Windcutter at about 42 yards and a head length of 58 ft - and boy does this line absolutely rocket (no mend usually required)

Regardeth

CLaG

[tynetraveller]

Oh so many definites between CLaG and Willie Gunn. As Harry Hill would say, 'There's only one way to settle this..'

A couple of two penny-worth- On a pool on the Spey that fishes a fly down and across perfectly, if you can get away with a long head line and avoid stripping etc, that is perfect. But a 75ft head intermediate is fine imho with a small fly, but try casting it with a 4inch wing templedog.

The Scandis, who are the only ones who regularly have to fish big flies really deep in really big rivers, all use shooting heads. A Monteith set-up, whilst great in some combinations, would still not be my choice for dredging all day. With 25ft of fast sinking tip it's still going to be a bit of a handful once the tip is deep, and mending ability of the floating belly section is surely not much different in controlling all that sunk line than the thin running line of a shooting head kept out of the water.

One last point- If there are enough fish about anything is possible- This is one of three fish caught in an hour in bright sun shining straight down stream..






Cheers, Simon