Conditions

[castlikeaghille]

tynetraveller said:

Oh so many definites between CLaG and Willie Gunn. As Harry Hill would say, 'There's only one way to settle this..'

A couple of two penny-worth- On a pool on the Spey that fishes a fly down and across perfectly, if you can get away with a long head line and avoid stripping etc, that is perfect. But a 75ft head intermediate is fine imho with a small fly, but try casting it with a 4inch wing templedog.

The Scandis, who are the only ones who regularly have to fish big flies really deep in really big rivers, all use shooting heads. A Monteith set-up, whilst great in some combinations, would still not be my choice for dredging all day. With 25ft of fast sinking tip it's still going to be a bit of a handful once the tip is deep, and mending ability of the floating belly section is surely not much different in controlling all that sunk line than the thin running line of a shooting head kept out of the water.

One last point- If there are enough fish about anything is possible- This is one of three fish caught in an hour in bright sun shining straight down stream..



Ceers

Simon

TT

The Badger Parade - sweet. A well thought out response IMO. If deep water randon dredging all day with big bulky flies was the mood of the moment I certainly wouldn't be reaching for the Jocky M. I note with interest the difficulty people have reported in fishing the Turbo Disco. With respect these flies were designed to be fished on shooting heads, not full lines where you are trying lift 20 - 25 yards of line (we had exactly the same problem in our early days experimenting with Collies with 6" synthetic wings). The Jocky M piece was merely attempting to point out why as a general fishing line it is probably, to paraphrase Steve, a significant development, and IMO replaces the need for the intermediate.

I'm willing to bet, other than on Macallan Side , within two years the Inty will be consigned to the dark corner of many peoples' bags marked very occasional use (at least as far as mid - big rivers go). The tackle trade is notoriously pish at listening to its customers. However, the last time I heard a line received with such aclaim was the original kelly green intermediate twenty + years ago, so I suspect even they might hear this chorus.

We increasingly use shooting heads in all our fishing. However, it is interesting to fish with the Vikings on say the Dee which we have done for the last six years.

They, IME, use shooting heads for almost everything. The SH excels in a number of circumstances, but chiefly where potentially takeable fish are spread over a wide area of river, and then the ability to send one of these into the next parish is a boon (law of probability again). BTW if you can Spey Cast 30 yards, IMO with right tackle (absolutely critical) and technique most people, with a little practice, could give the Vikings a run for their money at S/H distance. There are a few other circumstances where they will give you a significant edge (nothing is better for fishing the Collie on a big river). Hence the P&D water at Stormont on bottom Tay is fertile ground, as are rare and mighty pools like the Village at Kincardine, some of the Lower Tweed Motorways and they have potential on the Lochy; no doubt there are other pools to.

Back to the raiders, while their casting is sensational to watch, they don't necessarily do much damage with it other than when they are fishing the Sunray. My suggestion for this is that with the S/H you give up presentational flexibility for a percentage coverage gain (although to be absolute fair there are two or three presentational tricks you can only really effectively do with an S/H). However, it is very difficult to attack a precise lie with an S/H other than to cast beyond/above it drift in or strip a fly through it (but what you can't do effectively is mend and hold, and I suggest the ability to do that is more important more of the time than anything else).

Even if you had to get down to the fish I'd personally use a Jocky M (or Rio M/Spey tips) in preference if I could reach it becasue I can control far better how a fly is presented over the lie. I note your point about similarity of running line management, but it seems our experinces are different; but life can be like that

Best,

CLaG

[salmoseeker]

For me this is overstated ya ya - sorry no offence. Regardez, salmo

[rennie]

Several things to the later part of this thread,firstly P+D at Stormont on the lower Tay? not quite its Stormont Angling Club water on the Lower Tay of which P+D have a few day permits available for each bank, to members of course.Secondly and of importance to me is, CLaG what are these Skagit cheater bits like on the Rio Accelerator multi tip? like the poly/multi-tip versatility its working very well for me.Thirdly Mr. Gunn never had any problem with the Lee Wullf lines both floaters and intermediate 80ft heads cast them both with the belly just into the tip ring on my 15ft 6" Sovereign and 16ft Powerlite Spey, might not do it with your grace and style but it gets there and both lines are used with poly-tips up to L.S.R. 24 no probs., oh by the way cheated a bit ,cut 18" off the front taper of them to help turn over.Can both agree and disagree with all over this,do feel its horses for courses,in all probability would reach for some form of multi-tip first but in a broad stream or awkward wind the intermediate would steal it. A line of 2" ps sink rate I find spot on for the upper Tweed in autumn especially in these warmer back end climates,used my Rio Accelerator Intermediate in the Village at Kincardine very early season just the ticket there but there again so was my Accelerator Multi-tip too(right under the wires too,to nick another thread).Only downside to the multi-tip presentation I find is a slightly splashy delivery with the heavier tips (and compensator) often bettered by a full line (sinking type).Yours with lines coming out of my ears (and shortly into the Dee) Pedro.

[castlikeaghille]

rennie said:

Several things to the later part of this thread,firstly P+D at Stormont on the lower Tay? not quite its Stormont Angling Club water on the Lower Tay of which P+D have a few day permits available for each bank, to members of course.Secondly and of importance to me is, CLaG what are these Skagit cheater bits like on the Rio Accelerator multi tip? like the poly/multi-tip versatility its working very well for me.Thirdly Mr. Gunn never had any problem with the Lee Wullf lines both floaters and intermediate 80ft heads cast them both with the belly just into the tip ring on my 15ft 6" Sovereign and 16ft Powerlite Spey, might not do it with your grace and style but it gets there and both lines are used with poly-tips up to L.S.R. 24 no probs., oh by the way cheated a bit ,cut 18" off the front taper of them to help turn over.Can both agree and disagree with all over this,do feel its horses for courses,in all probability would reach for some form of multi-tip first but in a broad stream or awkward wind the intermediate would steal it. A line of 2" ps sink rate I find spot on for the upper Tweed in autumn especially in these warmer back end climates,used my Rio Accelerator Intermediate in the Village at Kincardine very early season just the ticket there but there again so was my Accelerator Multi-tip too(right under the wires too,to nick another thread).Only downside to the multi-tip presentation I find is a slightly splashy delivery with the heavier tips (and compensator) often bettered by a full line (sinking type).Yours with lines coming out of my ears (and shortly into the Dee) Pedro.

Pedro

I am sorry for my slight error in description of S/mont. I fished the top end from Rome Croy in a few times over the summer (July) as an Almondmouth rod. It was always reported to me as P&D which just goes to show you how loose talk costs lives! I am happily corrected!

Thank you also for responding with a reasoned and detailed argument about the merits of MT's v Intys. Ex WG you are only the third so far (as I type). I hope you are not the last!

On Skagits, I thought I had posted on this earlier on the thread. However, if my techno skills have let me down please do let me know

Good to speak to people who have shared the Village People experience - at 2 - 2 1/2 do you know of any other pool that offers 500 yards of productive fly fuishin' straight down in one pool? (I exclude from this tracts of the Tay that can be harled in a oner because that usually contains dead water) - that is definitely one for the floor

Regardez

CLaG

[williegunn]

Oh yes` a shooting head is good for stripping a collie dog but for other uses it is a pain, all that running line tangling everywhere.

[rennie]

Chill CLaG,liked Kincardine a lot really nice bit of water all of it,fished it as a full beat(kincardine and Borrowstone)and Kincardine on its own,it was always kind to me.Had my best Dee day there,early June boiling hot bright sunshine had a 14lb fish in the morning from K1 in the lucky hole,then a 18lb fish in the afternoon from K2 the flats and finally a 16 lb fish from the Village in the early evening all shinning silver and sea liced.The flats is my fav. bit,a pig to wade hard to get right but real cool when you do.Unfortunately marriage and tea pots means summat has to give ,oh well.Keep up the posts cheers Pedro.

[castlikeaghille]

rennie said:

Chill CLaG,liked Kincardine a lot really nice bit of water all of it,fished it as a full beat(kincardine and Borrowstone)and Kincardine on its own,it was always kind to me.Had my best Dee day there,early June boiling hot bright sunshine had a 14lb fish in the morning from K1 in the lucky hole,then a 18lb fish in the afternoon from K2 the flats and finally a 16 lb fish from the Village in the early evening all shinning silver and sea liced.The flats is my fav. bit,a pig to wade hard to get right but real cool when you do.Unfortunately marriage and tea pots means summat has to give ,oh well.Keep up the posts cheers Pedro.

Yer makin; me week at the knees with yer tales - it's caryin' all thae tea pots

[paulsewin]

Waking Mini Tubes

As promised, this is the explanation about waking mini-tubes. This will be detailed and the details matter - I'm not typing this because I want the exercise.

This is my recollection of the method Robert Gillespie, Moy, showed me - any error or omission is my responsibility.

First let me tell you what this approach isn't.

It doesn't mean casting sort of downstream, J curve if you want, and allowing a tube fly with a hole drilled in one side to be towed across the surface by a decent current.

Neither is it about letting a fly fish so fast across a current that it looks like a little jet ski with a plume of water coming off the front of the fly.

Finally, it isn't about rapidly hand lining something across the surface to create a wake.

The method is flexible enough to do all the above but it's real value is fishing very slow moving water. Many Irish rivers are little more than canals for large stretches and yet the Irish anglers have developed various methods for extracting salmon on fly and other baits.
With the decreasing rainfall during the summers you might be well advised to go to Ireland to learn some of their tricks.

First the tackle.
Your normal rod, single or double hander of your choice and, of course, a floating line.

The flies, either specific waking tubes with holes in side 1/2 or 3/4 inch, (patterns? whatever pattern you like fishing with, there's a whole thread there) or normal mini tube flies without the hole, same size. (I actually carry both, see explanation later)

The cast, one fly on point, one on dropper, about 10-12 foot cast. If you are using 'Holed' tubes, these will always create a wake along as you are sensible with the hook size.

Normal tubes flies - you will save yourselves a whole lot of grief if you remember these.

1. USE NYLON, not fluorocarbon. For some reason, every fluorocarbon I've tried drowns the tubes and I can't get them to wake at all.

2. Use two flies, you can get one fly to wake but it's easier with two.

3. Use Partridge XB3L outpoint trebles, 14 for the 1/2", 12 for the 3/4".

4. If they don't wake, retie the flies, BOTH OF THEM. I know it doesn't make any sense at all and I didn't believe it made any difference. 1 hour later, wasted fishing time, increased frustration, I finally used the solution I'd been given and, of course, they worked.

For all the above you can make your own mistakes, or learn from mine. How much time can you afford to waste?

The Method

This works in all speeds of current but is the only method I know that works in slow current.

Typical pool set up, left hand bank, sloping gravel into defined current, bit of depth and slacker water on right bank, a few rocks, boils and other features, just to make it ideal, we'll even have some fish in it.

Remember it is low & slow. Cast square, you should still have enough line in your hand to allow you to lift the rod almost vertically - 11.30ish. Trap the line on your upper hand with your forefinger and get hold of the running line with your left hand.

WAIT, and possibly WAIT some more. This can be very slow to start with. What are you waiting for? You are waiting for what current there is out there to tension your fly line -enough to bring the tube flies up onto the surface.

There are some subtleties here. I usually wait for the belly to tension (that's one reason for the vertical rod tip, to maximise the amount of line on the water). If nothing happens, I will draw some line in until the flies "pop" onto the surface.

Once the flies are up there, you need to keep them there, you need to fish them while they're there and finally you have to hook the fish.

There's a lot for you to do.

Keeping the flies on the surface - gentle hand lining to speed them up, raising or lowering the rod tip as well.

Fly speed - the flies will fish at two speeds, dead slow and jet ski. You've guessed it, the one we want is dead slow. Lower the rod to take some of the tension out of the system.

You will have to commit yourself to playing with this and fitting it to your water. You will need to experiment.

Fishing the flies. Once they're on the surface and you are controlling their speed you still have the option of using any of the normal presentation methods e.g. getting the flies to hang over lies, drop back, etc

Hooking the fish - I've had absolutely no success to date with this method but I have only had 3 follows. I've only used this method about 12 times in 4 years.

Robert tells me he used to miss 7 out of 10 rises to the waking tube fly by waiting for the fish to turn on the fly. However, he has now increased his success rate to 9 out of 10 by "feeding" the fly to the fish. Basically, once you know that the fly is being followed, all you do is lower the rod tip, the slack line "stops" the tubes on the surface of the water.

(I don't know why a fish that's made all this effort to come to the surface won't take unless you feed the fly to it, but it does beg an interesting question. How often is this happening sub-surface, how can we detect it and if we can, will this method work? - another thread perhaps)

Hooking the fish - you may all have your own preferred methods but you may just want to consider this approach. This method is so visual and the salmon behaviour could be so explosive that any method that involves real angler input is likely to result in lost fish.

Your rod tip will be pretty near vertical to start with, as the fish approaches you will drop the tip slightly to "feed" the fly to the fish. Your forefinger on your top hand has already locked the line tight. As the fish takes, just let it drag the rod tip down to the water. In other words, don't do anything until it's too late for you to mess it up.

Why do I use both types of tubes?

1. I use mini tubes a lot. If I forget the waking tubes I will be forced to use ordinary ones.

2. The purist in me likes to do it properly, without cheating, sad but true.

3. There is one direction of presentation for which the normal tube is vital and that is upstream.

This has been a huge post already - upstream will follow, but only if you want it.

[castlikeaghille]

PaulS - Fascinating, thank you for taking the time to share this. Before the discussion starts, I wondered if we could cut and paste this to a new thread retitled simply to make referencing it easier in the future.

Regardez

CLaG

[paulsewin]

Hi Clag,

If you think this is worth its own thread, cut and paste away.

Paul

[woburn]

CLaG and all,

Thanks. Love the threads, just makes me realise how little I know. Up to Ballater on Sunday for a week on Crathie. Just printing out these threads to take up with me. It's going to be a fun week......

PS if any of you guys would like to exchange golf lessons for fishing lessons please send a PM. I'm willing to travel.

Sam