tay salmon fishing

[shrimpman]

akflyrod said:

wg u being an x dentist should know the meaning of- bite this, dont call me stupid again,
i think your overall attitude on this topic sucks, but i guess as long as all rods are booked up 4 u ,that is all that matters eh,
so the issue at hand, lack of fish, has an endless list of finger pointing, not just at land owners, in the us a body was formed ( fish & game) to take the welfare of land and marine, people whom care, in the later 90s the great lakes became infested with zebra mussels, action was taken , now lake ontario has a healthy stock of trout & salmon
the river lagan in belfast once boasted huge runs of salmon early 1900s wiped out completly , it took 100 years to get atlantic salmon running in the river,
georges banks in the atlantic almost wiped out ,with over fishing, and that is were the atlantic salmon fed waiting to migrate back to the great salmon rivers in nh & maine,
fish and game stepped in , us goverment closed the banks to all fishing, fishing fleets were purchased from long time fishermen and fish stocks both salt and fresh water returned to there wonder days, all rivers in the uk are in a decline ,as we all remember the days gone bye, of better salmon fishing, at this rated atlantic salmon will be on the endangered species list, and many will be unemployed, so why does it have to reach that stage , before anyone takes notice,
and wg if you dont have anything helpfull to say,-- then say nothing at all

You have to remember there are people on this site who have a vested interest in charging as much as they can for such a few fish. They justify having extortionate prices for have a nice hut but few catches. Salmon fishing is the only sport you can do perfectly all day and catch nothing. Unfortunatel on the Tay there are lots of beats that are only to willing to take your money for no return.

[madkeen]

Well if anything things are just as bad after the rain if not worse

[riverwalk]

shrimpman,
you seem to have some sort of downer !! on the tay riparian owners i don't know which beats you have fished and have a beef with ! ! ! you quote "extortionate prices "... " have a nice hut but few catches. " ... unfortunatel on the tay there are lots of beats that are only too willing to take your money for no return!!!
if you do your sums, you will find that most average tay beats take in a total of 40/50 k per year. out of this pay for the ghillie, housing, vehicle, pension etc. then the general up keep of the fishery i.e. bank maintenance, secure car parking, access roads etc.
then the cost of the annual flood damage ! ! ! it's like throwing money down the drain ! ! !
i issue of catches is totally seperate and needs to be tackled ! ! ! i for one am happy that these riparian owners allow us for a modist cost the pleasure of enjoying their facility ! ! !
compared to the cost of..tacking the kids to foottie!!! a round of golf!!!...lets not mention going to murrayfield!!!! etc...its great value for money!!!
quote " the best way to become a millionaire is to be a billionaire!! and buy a salmon beat!!!"
i for one am happy that i can fish these beats a t modest cost!!!!...and thank god i dont own one!!!

[williegunn]

akflyrod said:

wg u being an x dentist should know the meaning of- bite this, dont call me stupid again,
i think your overall attitude on this topic sucks, but i guess as long as all rods are booked up 4 u ,that is all that matters eh,
so the issue at hand, lack of fish, has an endless list of finger pointing, not just at land owners, in the us a body was formed ( fish & game) to take the welfare of land and marine, people whom care, in the later 90s the great lakes became infested with zebra mussels, action was taken , now lake ontario has a healthy stock of trout & salmon
the river lagan in belfast once boasted huge runs of salmon early 1900s wiped out completly , it took 100 years to get atlantic salmon running in the river,
georges banks in the atlantic almost wiped out ,with over fishing, and that is were the atlantic salmon fed waiting to migrate back to the great salmon rivers in nh & maine,
fish and game stepped in , us goverment closed the banks to all fishing, fishing fleets were purchased from long time fishermen and fish stocks both salt and fresh water returned to there wonder days, all rivers in the uk are in a decline ,as we all remember the days gone bye, of better salmon fishing, at this rated atlantic salmon will be on the endangered species list, and many will be unemployed, so why does it have to reach that stage , before anyone takes notice,
and wg if you dont have anything helpfull to say,-- then say nothing at all

I'm sorry but your lack of puntuation at any level makes your posts so difficult to read that you come across as stupid, I never called you stupid I just said.

williegunn said:

you are even more stupid than your posts suggest.

I thought I was being helpful by pointing out that as ALL rivers are suffering from lack of fish that closing the Tay for five years is a waste of time, the problem IS at sea.

[wilbert]

if you do your sums, you will find that most average tay beats take in a total of 40/50 k per year. out of this pay for the ghillie, housing, vehicle, pension etc. then the general up keep of the fishery i.e. bank maintenance, secure car parking, access roads etc.

I would quite happily fish without all of the above, I have been able to wipe my own ar*e and tie my own shoes for quite a while now. Fishing with a ghillie on a well manicured beat from time to time is nice but not essential. Rents are overpriced on many rivers and beats, its about time owners / letting agents took note. Why can a river like the Deveron produce good catches, be in reasonable health and still charge rents that are less than you pay on most beats?

I hope that there are more fish in the system than people think and that this is not the start of a downward trend for the Tay and the rest of the UK. It could well just be a blip an the average figures as for every bumper year there are 1 or 2 bad ones to drag the average down. There are serious problems at sea but I doubt any government will do anything about it as they hardly ever look further forward than 4 years at a time.

Its a huge problem for anyone to tackle and there are miles of red tape surrounding everything these days due to the amount bureaucracy in this country. We used to be a great nation that could tackle any problem and rule 2/3 of the world now we cant even organize a piss up in a brewery without 100's of civil servants wasting huge sums of money slowing things down and some expert saying that alcohol is bad for you.

I will get my soap box now and get back to work, these night shifts just bring out the worst in me.

[akflyrod]

wg you have a trend, you pick a member to insult and continue to do so untill they dont post anymore, your last victim being scotty9nro , you have said on more than one occassion you will not read my posts ,BUT you continue to, not only read them ,but insult me too, your remarks are abusive and offending, you contribute very little in the way of advise,
let me just tell you a little about myself !!
1 i did not buy my way into fishing through a few wealthy friends, in ny state i passed a writen test, swimming, test,and life saving test , and became a licensed river guide, fishing the pulaski salmon river for salmon and steelhead, then done my 6 pack captains licence, and chartered on lake ontario picking fish out of 300 ft x 36 miles wide moved to alaska and as licenses are not transfered sat the tests over for that state, guided on the world famous kenai and kasilof rivers beaten geogina ballintines record many times, caught fish you have only read about, but most of all , i treat people with respect, no matter what there class,
so either you were bullied at school, or you have no life, i dont really care, this thread was of a good topic and you have nothing positive to add to it, so take a hike, and let forum members have there opinion ,without your abuse, thank you.

[ibm59]

Nothing Moderate about you , WG.
Do you have to work at coming over all high and mighty , or does it come naturally to you?
Another good thread hi-jacked.

[ibrox]

I know you lot think i'm a trouble maker, i'm not i just can't sit back like some and watch as another member is abused, it may be you next, how can you sit back and watch WG constantly pick on forum members and not say anything . He is supposed to be a moderator (ie stopping trouble when it starts ) not causing it like ibm59 says, another good thread wasted thanks WG

[macd]

I'm sorry but your lack of puntuation at any level makes your posts so difficult to read that you come across as stupid, I never called you stupid I just said.

stick it to him malcolm- he cant puntuate - must be dumber than a bag of hammers

come on now enough of this. lets keep any insults and suggestions of stupidity to pm's. while im sure Akflyrod can stick up for himself, it is offputting to others who might be intimidated or worried about being flamed for airing an opinion.

its not healthy.

Gies peace.

R

[shrimpman]

riverwalk said:

shrimpman,
you seem to have some sort of downer !! on the tay riparian owners i don't know which beats you have fished and have a beef with ! ! ! you quote "extortionate prices "... " have a nice hut but few catches. " ... unfortunatel on the tay there are lots of beats that are only too willing to take your money for no return!!!
if you do your sums, you will find that most average tay beats take in a total of 40/50 k per year. out of this pay for the ghillie, housing, vehicle, pension etc. then the general up keep of the fishery i.e. bank maintenance, secure car parking, access roads etc.
then the cost of the annual flood damage ! ! ! it's like throwing money down the drain ! ! !
i issue of catches is totally seperate and needs to be tackled ! ! ! i for one am happy that these riparian owners allow us for a modist cost the pleasure of enjoying their facility ! ! !
compared to the cost of..tacking the kids to foottie!!! a round of golf!!!...lets not mention going to murrayfield!!!! etc...its great value for money!!!
quote " the best way to become a millionaire is to be a billionaire!! and buy a salmon beat!!!"
i for one am happy that i can fish these beats a t modest cost!!!!...and thank god i dont own one!!!

Hi Riverwalk,

I have fished most beats on the Tay one or two are excellent in terms of facilities etc. However, the cost per fish is astronomical when compared with rivers such as the nith, annan, stinchar, deveron any many many more.

I also feel for years the riparian owners have taken and not given anything back (one or two exceptions noted). In the good old days they could charge what they liked and getting on a prime beat could only be achieved by filling dead mens shoes. Today, however, looking through the Tay website there are rods available throughout the system. These vacancies are due to people voting with thier feet due to the lack of catches and little value for money.

This also affects the local economy with B&B's, Hotels, Garages etc etc loosing revenue.

If there was an abundance of fish in the river demand would outstrip supply of rod availability.

[pertempledog]

[quote author=williegunn board=general thread=1177480330 post=1177628149
I thought I was being helpful by pointing out that as ALL rivers are suffering from lack of fish that closing the Tay for five years is a waste of time, the problem IS at sea.[/quote]

WG as the question that underlies this thread (ie Salmon stocks) is very close to my heart I would be most interested in your further thoughts on this.

P.A.T.

[severnfisher]

What I don't understand is that if private ownership is so good for salmon fishing, then who killed all those salmon in the 19th and 20th century? Was it the tooth fairy?

[williegunn]

severnfisher said:

What I don't understand is that if private ownership is so good for salmon fishing, then who killed all those salmon in the 19th and 20th century? Was it the tooth fairy?

In the 19th and 20th centuary little was known about salmon and it appeared that you could net the river to your hearts content and the fish would still be there. I think now the owners know a little more.

State ownership would be an total disaster for the Salmon, prices for anglers might well drop but so would investment and when something costs little in is not valued highly.

[williegunn]

pertempledog said:

WG as the question that underlies this thread (ie Salmon stocks) is very close to my heart I would be most interested in your further thoughts on this.

P.A.T.

I will try to reply on Sunday, I am presently deeply involved in a large fishing party and fishing and drinking hard for the third week on the trot.
I would say that the 2SW element of the run is very poor this year, about 10% of last year.

[akflyrod]

riverwalk , some good points, although unlike football were you do see a lot of kids with there dads, i dont see any down on the beats learning to fish, could it be its to exspensive,
mike i dont think you are a trouble maker buddy , you have made some interesting posts ,
anyways its not all land owners fault, but they do need to show an interest in the decline , the lords do have some pull, so they could use it in the right places to get the ball rolling,
address the problem now & secure the future of atlantic salmon

[severnfisher]

In the 19th and 20th centuary little was known about salmon and it appeared that you could net the river to your hearts content and the fish would still be there. I think now the owners know a little more.

What actually happened is that the owners netted the stock to the verge of extinction and then became 'conservationists' when it was the only viable way of continuing to make money out of salmon.

The owners were aware of the case against what they were doing, but nobody had the power or political will to stop them.

This history is documented very well in The Tragedy of the salmon by David Shaw.

[severnfisher]

In the 19th and 20th centuary little was known about salmon and it appeared that you could net the river to your hearts content and the fish would still be there. I think now the owners know a little more.

What actually happened is that the owners netted the stock to the verge of extinction and then became 'conservationists' when it was the only viable way of continuing to make money out of salmon.

The owners were aware of the case against what they were doing, but nobody had the power or political will to stop them.

This history is documented very well in The Tragedy of the salmon by David Shaw.

[severnfisher]

The alternative state ownership or private ownership is a false choice.

Democratic common ownership would be better. If all anglers had a stake in what should be a common resource then the rivers couldn't possibly be as badly managed as they have been by the private owners.

Incidently, if you want an indication of how bad capitalism has been for the salmon then consider why it is that Russia now boasts the best fishing in the world. The paranoid and disfunctional stalinist police state at least prevented the over exploitation of the Kola. If a system that bad has proved to be better than private ownership for the preservation of salmon stocks, then why the obsessive need to defend the existing system of fishing ownership and access?

[tynetraveller]

I think to be fair the fact that most Kola rivers flow through remote wilderness far from habitation( often in military reserves) may have had a little influence on this. The Kola River itself, near to Murmansk, was poached to hell and still is frequently poached. The Russian regime has not been whiter than white with regard to environment. The guys who explored the Varzuga when it was first opened up to westerners were issued with Geiger counters, and god only knows what those fish swim past in Submarine and warship junk yards near Murmansk.. It is total lack of major habitation and an abscence of forestry or farming, let alone industry, that has kept the Kola pristine. But you do raise an interesting point. Why does the Kola have so many salmon? After all these fish head to the same feeding grounds at sea as our fish- The answer, massive smolt production in waters totally unaffected in any way by human activity ( There are exceptions to this- The Kola River has a hatchery). If we could match the smolt densities on the Russian rivers in our own, maybe there would be no problem.

[elwyman]

tynetraveller said:

If we could match the smolt densities on the Russian rivers in our own, maybe there would be no problem.

Agreed, but I doubt that many rivers, certainly in parts of Wales and England, now have the fly life to sustain a big increase in parr/smolts. The dreaded sheep dip and other forms of pollution like acid rain have decimated some rivers over the last 30 years or so.