tay salmon fishing

[wilbert]

I have noticed a big difference this year with the amount of fly life that is about, there have been some very good hatches of up winged flies this year. Could this be a direct result of the banning of the sheep dip (cant remember the exact name of this nasty stuff)? The other thing that I noticed whilst fishing for trout was the number of Parr going through the smolting process but they were about 2" smaller than in previous years so maybe there is no more food about than in previous years. Yet again 2 conflicting pieces of evidence, nothing in salmon fishing is straight froward.

[akflyrod]

totally agree with tynetraveler, i used to guide on the salmonriver ny the hatchery there were responsable for the massive runs of salmon and steelhead, check it out, they give a lot of info
(salmon river fish hatchery altmar ny)

gary

[pertempledog]

Guys does the Kola actually have a big Salmon run? I fish in Russia every year, sometimes twice a year. Not many rivers actually have big runs - you might be surprised!

P.A.T.

[wilbert]

I have been told by others that the rivers on the Kola dont get runs any bigger than the big rivers in Scotland its just that the season is so short that the fish have to pour in and fill the rivers over 2 to 3 months where in Scotland this can be done over 12 months.

[severnfisher]

Wilbert, Tyne Traveller, PT,

Some interesting thoughts about the Russian rivers thanks.

The point I was making was what do we think the fishing would be like now if the Stalinist system had collapsed in say the 60's or 70's? Instead of catch and release fisheries we would have had the transposition of the 'traditional' Scottish model with massive netting and a disaster for the stocks.

Tom

p.s. Wilbert,
I've noticed the same thing with fly life on the Severn this year.

[sagecaster]

severnfisher said:

The alternative state ownership or private ownership is a false choice.

Democratic common ownership would be better. If all anglers had a stake in what should be a common resource then the rivers couldn't possibly be as badly managed as they have been by the private owners.

Incidently, if you want an indication of how bad capitalism has been for the salmon then consider why it is that Russia now boasts the best fishing in the world. The paranoid and disfunctional stalinist police state at least prevented the over exploitation of the Kola. If a system that bad has proved to be better than private ownership for the preservation of salmon stocks, then why the obsessive need to defend the existing system of fishing ownership and access?

You should know that the Russians netted and exploited their Atlantic salmon stocks at least as heavily as the Europeans. To increase their harvest, they spent years introducing pink salmon into all of their rivers east of the Urals which have now made it to the Kola and white sea.

The reason that the Kola has more Salmon is simple and not by design but purely circumstantial, the protection of the pack ice ensures a healthy and prolific feeding resource which cannot be exploited by anyone...yet. Rest assured if the Russians could fish under the ice they would.

[sagecaster]

tynetraveller said:

Why does the Kola have so many salmon? After all these fish head to the same feeding grounds at sea as our fish- The answer, massive smolt production in waters totally unaffected in any way by human activity ( There are exceptions to this- The Kola River has a hatchery). If we could match the smolt densities on the Russian rivers in our own, maybe there would be no problem.

Absolutely agree. Kharlovka has parr densities in the summer of 7m2, and its a low volume fish river. I understand the Spey varies between 1 and 2 parr m2( WG will correct me if I' wrong). I know its dangerous to compare the two systems because they are so different, however if a river like Kharlovka which only has a 3 month summer can support a high density, why can't the Spey at least match it?

[tynetraveller]

It is certainly true that many of the Kola rivers do not have huge runs when compared to the big four in Scotland. The Kharlovka is sub-10,000 fish per year and the Litza less than half that, but they are fast. short rivers. The Litza is only navigable to salmon for 8Km! The Ponoi and Varzuga have massive runs, and the Kola a pretty large number.

[pertempledog]

And this, Tynetraveller, is where I become seriously interested in this whole debate. There will be others such as your good self out there who will have the stats and know much more than I do, but the Ponoi, with its massive runs, was for decades, commercially netted literally bank to bank six days a week every week from when the ice melted in May until it froze again in the autumn. Not a single fish could pass through during those six days. Only one day a week did the nets come off and those fish had to survive, feed the local resident (Pomors)and nomadic (Sami) tribes, and breed enough to keep the cycle going - and somehow they did!

Similarly the Varzuga, that other prolific river, was netted mercilessly, and the town at the base of the river existed only for that fact. Ditto Varzina, Yokanga and, I assume most if not all the others. If I am correct (but do please feel free to let me know if I'm wrong) the commercial fishery was taken off Yokanga and some others only when the military took over the river mouths for their own reasons.

Commercial netting was big business up there and controlled by central government. There was also (and in places still is) poaching, sometimes on a scale more than just "one for the pot"

If we consider Ponoi, the netting of this river for day after day for year after year and so on for many decades means that they have accurate records of fish runs up this river for virtually every year for a century and it shows a constant rhythm of cycles which build year on year to a maximum run of about 90,000 fish, before it collapses and starts again. Even then the records show smaller cycles within the bigger cycles.

But it's drawing conclusions that is, in my opinion, difficult. So it would seem from the Russian experience that salmon runs are cyclical, that rivers can be abused and yet (subject to the cycles) they still keep coming, so what is actually happening in our rivers?

I look forward to learning more from you anyone with a view, an opinion, or better with more knowledge than I as this issue is, as I said to WG, central in my view to our sport and its future.

P.A.T.

[tynetraveller]

Per, You are right that the salmon were well exploited ( abused is another matter)- The official Russian netting and the Pomor/ Saami systems did allow for enough spawners to re-stock- The Pomors in particular netted the whole rivers, but released a portion of the fish, as did the official nets on the Kola rover. The abuse came when the poachers got to the fish that had been spared.. The netting data provides very good information on runs, the problem in drawing conclusions is you also need a load of environmental data such as temperatures, events at SEA, NAO figures etc, etc to compare the runs with in order to try to work out why the runs changed- I'm afraid I have no clever conclusions at all. I will have a word with the fish scientist at kharlovka when I go out first week in June. What is sure is if you have wonderful juvenile nursery areas and high parr/smolt survival in river, You can harvest a high percentage of returning fish, at least in the majority of the population cycle, without endangering or even affecting future runs. The good rivers are now at a point where the only limit on their runs is number of smolts the river can produce each year- which they more or less reach-They cannot control factors at sea, but the rivers remain healthy and full of salmon.

I have spoken to Ian Borthwick at Carron on the Spey, he is sure smolt densities are nuch lower than they were twenty years ago. The problems are not ONLY at sea..


The Kola grilse were as fat as butter last year, seemingly unaffected by the problems we saw in Scotland and Ireland- will they be Ok this year?

[colliedog]

All I can add to this thread is that things are as bad as they seem! I have just come back from a few days fishing on the Isla at Coupar Grange - one of the most productive beat on the Tay system at this time of year (only Islamouth at around a foot is really going to come close). On Wednesday the river got an 18' lift - Thurs was a bit dirty but by Friday it was fining off beautifully. Problem was there was hardly a fish to be seen in circumstances where they would have normally been bouncing through the pools. Total catch for the beat over three days with good water was 1 fish .

Prior to that I was on the middle Dee where the same problem was evident. The start of the rise of water on Wednesday morning stirred up the residents and provided an entertaining few hours of classic floating line fishing but once the water started to fall back there was no signs of fresh fish moving in.

CD

[williegunn]

Salmon Stocks are cyclical by nature and if the proprietors and river boards decide they want a perfectly natural system it is to be expected that there are going to be some bad years as well as some good years. I am not in favour of stocking unless the system is showing a serious decline and drastic measures are needed, nature and the salmon in particular are very resilient. The problems this year are I hope, just a blip on an otherwise upward trend but as I have said earlier the problem appears not to be in the river systems but at sea. If it was decided to produce a steady run year in year out something similar to the Icelandic smolt ranching system would be needed, and you would turn Scotland’s salmon rivers into glorified put and take fisheries, smolt ranching is not a cheap option, would you be prepared to pay Icelandic prices to fish here?
Solutions? I believe a total ban on sandeel fishing would help the smolts as well other fish species not to mention seabirds like the Shetland puffins. Tighter controls of netting for salmon and other species and I still believe many smolts can be lost as a bi-catch when netting for mackerel and herring. Of course anglers and their bodies cannot be seen to be asking for all these controls whilst showing no restraint themselves and this is why raising the catch and release percentages is politically important.
Finally I consider it crucial to the salmon future that the rivers continue to be controlled by the owners, who however much you criticise them, have a vested and financial interest to ensure their investment does not disappear. Would a civil servant care as much? Threads like this one during a Scottish election campaign are not helpful to the salmon fishery boards cause, bearing in mind their future is currently under discussion.

[williegunn]

tynetraveller said:

I have spoken to Ian Borthwick at Carron on the Spey, he is sure smolt densities are nuch lower than they were twenty years ago. The problems are not ONLY at sea..

I have just finished 3 weeks fishing with Ian, the smolt run these last 2 weeks were as good as I can remember.
Ian has no figures, who does as yet? But is it not possible it is a case of the summers always being warmer and the snow always deeper?

[dunbar]

I'm led to believe that smolt production in Scottish rivers over the last few years has been pretty high - as Willie Gunn says, the problems appear to be marine-based. So much has been done to improve the freshwater habitats by the fishery boards and trusts over the past 10-15 years - many of this work is not 'headline-grabbing', but steady productive progress has been made by these organisations over the last 15 years or so.

What is more worrying is the apparent rise in sea temperatures, particularly in the Norwegian sea, where recorded increases of up to 3 degrees have been recorded in recent years. This sort of rise in temperature is massive in sea temperature terms and is believed to be a major factor in causing poor grilse condition.

[jock]

WG, I agree. I would however, always help nature.

Having hatcheries, and seeding the main river and feeder burns all help. Why not also release smolts and take steps that when the smolts are returning to sea the sea lice populations on their migration route are kept to a minimum by agreements with fish farmers. Maybe even one day they will farm salmon on land and do away with the problem of sea lice infestation.

[pertempledog]

Tynetraveller and WG, it is interesting as two different views are expressed here. In essence (if I understand you both) one is taking a broad view on where the problems lie but is confidant that if a river can produce enough smolts then there will be enough of a return to harvest almost at will, the other is more focused on problems at sea and comments that he hopes this year is a "blip" and the "problems appear not to be in the river systems". You both cite the smolt runs on the spey as your evidence.
and comments . For the likes of me it is trying to actually understand what the problem/s is/are.


HELP!

Yours confused but interested & listening,

P.A.T.

[greenbanks]

williegunn said:

tynetraveller said:

I have spoken to Ian Borthwick at Carron on the Spey, he is sure smolt densities are nuch lower than they were twenty years ago. The problems are not ONLY at sea..

I have just finished 3 weeks fishing with Ian, the smolt run these last 2 weeks were as good as I can remember.
Ian has no figures, who does as yet? But is it not possible it is a case of the summers always being warmer and the snow always deeper?

Appears to be a good smolt run on the Dee just now.
Hopefully they can get to sea and feed well.
I think marine survival is a real issue.
If they can look for microbes on Mars these days and find planets outside our solar system the i am sure sea fishermen can find where to net out our fish at sea sadly.
There is a real problem with over exploitation of sandeels/capelin
can we not get the danes back to eating their fine bacon ;D

[splash]

greenbanks said:

williegunn said:

I have just finished 3 weeks fishing with Ian, the smolt run these last 2 weeks were as good as I can remember.
Ian has no figures, who does as yet? But is it not possible it is a case of the summers always being warmer and the snow always deeper?

Appears to be a good smolt run on the Dee just now.
Hopefully they can get to sea and feed well.
I think marine survival is a real issue.
If they can look for microbes on Mars these days and find planets outside our solar system the i am sure sea fishermen can find where to net out our fish at sea sadly.
There is a real problem with over exploitation of sandeels/capelin
can we not get the danes back to eating their fine bacon ;D

SPK - on the assumption that you can actually read this and are no longer barred... The guide in the US that I fish with for stripers and tuna tells me that the companies that net both the tuna and juvenile menhaden that the bass feed on (they reduce them to fish oil) have spotter planes which follow areas of warmer water that break of from the gulf stream. When they spot fish they then just radio the coordinates via GPS to the trawlers. Its not beyond reason to think that the boats that go after salmon would utilise similar technology

[tynetraveller]

None of us have degrees in salmon ecology, I am stating my beliefs and acknowledge that they could be bull.. As WG says, we don't have all the data. But yes, my argument in a nutshell is that the Kola has proved that in an area with an undamaged smolt factory, you get lots of adult salmon and can exploit them to high levels if necessary. This is also shown by the Ranga in Iceland, which has a river bed of fine volcanic ash which will smother the eggs, so no natural breeding occurs at all, but which has a very healthy run of fish thanks to a smolt release programme. Maybe each Scottish big four beat sould have its own smolt pond and release fish as smolts rather than as parr or fed fry.. It would certainly be interesting to see a limited trial of this somewhere.

The other thing is maybe we should make more noise about the low returns from the SEA. NASF has done a lot to protect returning adults at sea, maybe now they should broaden their attentions to the fate of smolts and the overfishing of bait fish in the seas to protect juvenile salmon.

[pertempledog]

Am I correct is saying that the victorians were enthusiastic hatchers of salmon and thought nothing of introducing strains to rivers to improve quality and/or runs?

P.A.T.