River Tay 15 January Opening Day

[Willie The Gillie]

Does anyone think that the 15th of January opening on the Tay is still correct ?. In the last couple of decades only a small amount of true springers are ever caught in the month of January let alone the 15th. Does anyone ever think about the disturbance/injury of late run spawning fish still on the redds in January and the damage done to these fish and thousands of kelts with the large barbed cold water hooks typically used in January on the Tay. Surely spawning fish and kelts should get more respect (having evaded predation and other hazards since birth) and come before January rods and a few Tay early timeshare fishers who search for the 'needle in a haystack' January Tay springer ?

[kelliefly]

try using smaller barbless hooks !

[kercock]

I am certainly all in favour of not starting until February, but I am most definately NOT in favour of extending the season until November which in my opinion means a lot more money to the riparian owners and to the Tay Salmon Fisheries Board. The really big losers will no doubt be the gravid salmon which are all around at that time of year.According to a former chairman of the board that day is not so far away.
I applaud the owner of Newtyle and hopefully others will follow in the shortening of the season,including my boss.

[madkeen]

If they must open on the 15th january then one way to keep the early fishers happy maybe to go fly only with no trebles.
Alan

[tyneandrew]

It does seem sensible putting the season back to a February start. I believe in reality though any 'damage' done by fishers to kelts is pretty negligable for the future building of stocks on the Tay.

Perhaps something similar to the Tweed would be good - fly only until Feb?

[greenbanks]

Good luck with your initiative Mr Monteith.
I hope you can encourage a few more beats to delay their harling activities as there is no great joy to be had kelt bashing.They deserve a more considered fate.Fly only until march would seem to be worthy of a shout.Hope the new construction on the opposite bank didnt get washed away in the floods.

[Fruin]

Jock,

Given the number of fish caught in January, I see no problem with delaying the start of the season. However, it would have to be proved to offer significant benefit to the stocks. With natural kelt survival running at 10% for cock fish and 30% for hen fish (based on results stated in a previous post), I think that it would be hard to argue the case to the board and the owners.
The fly only rule may be a better option.
With sport and broodstock in mind, I think that it is dangerous to start playing with the opening and closing times, unless it is under constant review, given that a the timing of the runs can be cyclical. By this, I mean that if you were to extend the season because the fish have been running and spawning later, this may change in the next few years and would only be realised after another few years of dragging stale fish off their redds

[williegunn]

fruin said:

Jock,

With natural kelt survival running at 10% for cock fish and 30% for hen fish (based on results stated in a previous post),

Sorry where are these figures from?

[charlieh]

fruin said:

With natural kelt survival running at 10% for cock fish and 30% for hen fish (based on results stated in a previous post)

Interested to know the basis for this - does it refer to survival to the point of returning to the river a second time (which is surely the only useful measure)? If so, it certainly doesn't match the figures put forward by Malloch, which I've always believed to be accurate. He reckoned that approx 5% of salmon were repeat spawners, and the overwhelming majority of these were females. Second-run cock fish are very uncommon. Incidentally, Malloch's figures were more or less borne out by my own experience when I was seeing fish in sufficiently large numbers to make any useful observation.

Quite separately, what provision is made to compensate timeshare owners if the season is changed and their weeks disappear?

[charlieh]

In principle, I completely agree with you about leaving spawning fish alone. Are the Tay fish in fact spawning later than used to be the case (perhaps as a result of climate change)?

It goes without saying that all fish should be treated with proper respect, and anyone who kicks a kelt back into the river should be ashamed of themselves. I find it interesting, however, that in Canada, where C&R has been established for far longer than here, there seems to be quite a well-established tradition of fishing for 'black salmon' or 'downstreamers', and I've no reason to think that these fish are treated with any less respect than fresh fish.

I agree with those who have suggested restrictions on tackle and/or methods. Multi-hooked lures such as rapalas can surely have no place in a C&R regime, and I'd like to see more effort made to restrict the use of trebles, both with flies and spinning. I believe it's not uncommon to use singles on mepps-type lures in the US, but over here I've never seen a Flying C (for example) made with a single. I'm quite happy using doubles with tube flies, and I don't think I'd be unhappy with singles if that's what the regulations demanded. I've more or less given up using treble hooked flies now, although I admit I do still have some really tiny trebles in my boxes.

On the subject of Malloch's observations, they were largely based on fish taken from the Tay nets, and he was able to examine up to two thousand fish a day. Once he'd established the difference in appearance - most obviously the spot pattern - of a second-run fish it wouldn't have been too hard for him to pick them out. I think it's reasonable to assume that the nets caught a representative random sample of all the fish returning to the river, and because they were effectively all fresh fish, the differences in spot pattern would have been obvious. So although they were made a century ago, I think his findings as to the proportion of 1st and 2nd run fish are likely to be fairly accurate (unless rates of kelt survival have changed since then with increased predation, poorer feeding in the North Sea etc). With efficient random sampling like this, it's not necessary to know the total size of the run to establish the proportion of multiple spawners.

[Fruin]

It was stated in a previous post -

"Williegunn will probably know the origin of this, but I believe there was a study done at Fascally some years ago, which tried to analyse the relative mortality rates of cock and hen kelts. In both cases the rates were very high, something in the region of 90% for cocks and 70% for hens. It would be interesting to know if there have been any more recent studies. "

That is why I mentioned that it was from a previous post, as I cannot verify the results. My point was, that although I would support a later start to the season on many systems, it may be hard to get the support of the DSFB's and owners without conclusive proof that it would benefit stocks.

[williegunn]

Dr Malcolm Greenhalgh suggests that the number of repeat spawners are between 3-8% in Scottish rivers but as high as 30-34 % in short Canadian rivers. He suggests the death rate is quite high with between 10-35% surviving, mostly females.

[wilbert]

I personally would not go fishing if I knew that there was only the odd fresh fish a the river system that was stuffed with kelts. The earliest I have ever fished is the beginning of March on the Dee and the kelts to fresh fish ratio was still about 50/50. On the Ribble I will not go out before May and most do not bother until the 16th June due to the EA restrictions.

I guess its upto the anglers to vote with their feet and to frown upon those who just target the kelts. Catching a kelt is like kicking Mike Tysons ass when he is in his 70's, a shadow of its former glory and not very hard.

[madkeen]

Jock,
Shouldnt the tay board being doing more to encourage more anglers to release fish especially springers and to fish for them in a way that gives them a realistic chance of survival no multi hook lures.I think that the current guidelines are a joke if 2 rods are out harling on the tay and 2 fish are caught the fish will more than likely be chapped on the head as the first fish will be one anglers and the second fish will be the other anglers.I know the first fish should go back but i have heard it often enough that the gillie says knock the first one on the head and then its up to you what to do with the next one.I take it that you think that all people fishing before the end of march are just pretend fishers me included?

[tyneandrew]

I've got to say, as a 3rd wk feb timeshare owner on the Tay, that i thoroughly enjoy fishing there at that time of year. As a rounded salmon fisherman i know that i will catch my fair share during the season and enjoy the 'challenge' of trying to catch, what would be, 'the fish of the season' for me.

Last year we had a 22lb fish, covered in lice. If the boat had not beaten me to covering it, then i am confident it would have been mine - and on the fly from the bank.

btw - i have never caught a kelt on fly on the Tay at that time of year.

[williegunn]

Willie, I think you will find that the only way the Tay Board could make a mandatory catch and release would be to ask the Scottish Executive as the Esk Boards did. I would suggest that this is not the route that anyone would want. The Spey Board has just recomended that C&R is carried out and now achieves over 70%, but the gillies are the people who are on the front line.

[williegunn]

williethegillie said:

I think it would be far better (and this is my opinion) to take it out the boards/gillies hands and make it law.

A very dangerous thing to do, once the board has given away their choice to set local recommendations it will be difficult if not impossible to get back.

What would happen if the Spring run returned to previous levels and the Board deemed that a fish could be taken, they would have to ask the Scottish Executive to change the law, then what would happen if they said no?

Giving away power to the SE especially at this time is politically very naive.

[madkeen]

Its not rocket science all the board have to do is follow what is happening on the Spey if certain regulars are not happy with returning fish then i don't think they are a loss if they don't come back.The Dee and the Spey don't seem to have much difficulty in attracting anglers(true anglers) who are quite happy to return the majority of fish.If harling has to continue then surely they can use barbless flies,lures etc.
Alan

[tyneandrew]

As Malcolm previously said, its the gillies on the front line, and ultimately they need to enforce the push towards higher release rates of fish.

[Fruin]

If we have unsustainable stocks and are worried about losing fish to paying customers, should we really be fishing at all?