Tips to Gillie's

[munrokiller]

Greenalert, you will notice many interesting views from your thread. As suggested everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but if you wish to get the opinions and advice of the Ghillie and indeed wish to return in the future to your beat on the Dee, I would suggest that you tip the ghillie, a minimum of £10 per day. If you're happy enough just to do your own thing then simply make this clear from the outset, and the Ghillie will spend his time on those less experienced. Prior to becoming a Ghillie, I fished many private beats and always tipped the Ghillie a minimum of £10; It was simply the 'done thing' and in all honesty anything less I considered an insult. We certainly don't want sympathy, as from the outset the terms of our conditions are made well known; This lifestyle has its disadvantages like many others but what we lose in poor wages is made up for two fold in our daily surroundings and quality of life. For those who believe that ' It's their job, why should they be paid more ' I would suggest that they are not regularly invited to private beats with Ghillies and if they are then the Ghillies services must be questionable. Although it may well be the perks of the job, it is well known in fishing circles that the Ghillie normally receives a tip for services rendered. Fortunately most of the guests who return year after year to most beats appreciate the service they get and although it may be a form of habbit, they remain most generous. Tight Lines on the Dee, let us know how you got on.

[Sloggi]

Munrokiller - can you explain this bit of your post:

...indeed wish to return in the future to your beat on the Dee, I would suggest that you tip the ghillie, a minimum of £10 per day...

Your post was interesting and I respect the job you do but I can't agree with your thinking. You seem to suggest that tipping is "traditional" and is the "done thing" which a fallacy that has befallen humaity throughout its history in many areas. Also are you suggesting that those who don't tip are a) not welcome back and b) wouldn't receive the same service if they did? Surely you are seeing tipping as an entitlement and that removes the freedom of the individual to make a gesture of thanks for your excellant service. Should anglers be thinking: better tip the ghillie this time or next time I get the crap pools? Do you honestly decide who gets invited to private beats by the criteria of who tips the most? That would be seedy as best.

[munrokiller]

Hi Sloggi,

Firstly let me clearly state that these are only my opinions and perhaps not those of the vast number of Ghillies on our rivers. Further more it was your post, where you clearly stated that you never tipped which triggered my need to respond. I simply wanted Greenalert to see my view on the protocol of Salmon Fishing. Ghillie or Not.

I am suggesting that tipping is 'traditional' and is the 'done thing'. This also extends to the tipping of Gamekeepers following stalking or driven days. A matter of appreciation of a good days sport.

If I had the opportunity of offering fishing to 2 guests who were only seperated by the size of their 'Tips' then yes it would most certainly be a consideration.

The beat that I am employed on is booked throughout the entire season and every one of my guests 'Tipped' me last year. They will all be offered exactly the same service this year however, I can't just sit here and say that if they hadn't 'Tipped' me that they would receive the same treatment next year. Perhaps I should but I'm fed up with this PC world where we deny the truth in favour of towing the party line.
When I get a guest who decides that 'Tipping' isn't appropriate, I may be in a better position to answer but as I see it now, I feel that I would spend more time with the rods who appreciated me more.

Should anglers be thinking: better tip the ghillie this time or next time I get the crap pools? Again, not trying to evade the question but as stated above, I've yet to meet anyone who feels that 'Tipping' isn't appropriate. When or If I do, they will be filled with the same optimism as others, however whether their given pool is full or not is another matter.

Finally, you'll be glad to know that NO - who 'Tips' the most is not a criteria with regard to invitations. These invitations arere dealt with soley by the riparian landowners or booking agents.

Sloggi - As far as I'm concerned, your understanding of my response was spot-on, I'm certainly not going to deny that they may seem somewhat archaic but they are only my views after all. There may well be Ghillies out there who disagree and are content with their package without gratuities, however if you meet one, I'd love a chat.

[Sloggi]

Fair enough - thanks Munrokiller

[munrokiller]

Springer,

I'm quite happy to answer any questions, I have absolutely nothing to hide. I earn £8500 gross per year ( No House ) without tips. I'm only employed Feb-Sep though. Don't quote me but from information gathered from other Ghillies, I imagine that the basic rate for a full-time Ghillie would be anywhere in the region of £10-14000 with house. 'Tips' again only a guess - average £2-4k. The reason that I feel 'Tips' are such an important issue is that as you can see the wages are very basic, considering the hours, (6 Days per week 10 hours per day), minimum, especially in the summer months. However, as I stated earlier we are not forced into this occupation, it is our choice. Yes it has many plus points, but in essence we do rely on 'Tips' to suppliment our wages and fortunately most anglers realise that fact. They should however always receive a professional service in return

[greenalert]

Well, I never realised Gillie's were paid so little

It is an absolute disgrace that these wealthy landowners pay their employees so little, yet raking in vast amounts of cash through the efforts of their employees, so in my opinion, after reading all posts so far, nothing less than £10 if the service is acceptable

[munrokiller]

Greenalert,

As I stated earlier the occupation is a matter of personal choice and the wages must be balanced with the quality of life. This may well be highlighted by the fact that many Ghillies have retired from other professions. In Defence of the riparian landowners, the River Rates are pretty steep, clearly noted on SpeyGhillies post with regard to the Abernethy Region of the Spey. I'm pretty sure that there are no 'poor private beat owners' but it's not all profit either.

If you look around, you will see that there are not too many unhappy Ghillies around.

Good Luck on the Dee and let us know how you get on; I'm sure your Ghillie will look after you with pleasure.

[betanut]

Interesting to see that things have changed liitle since 'my day' as a Ghillie - salary= basic minimum agricultural wage plus benefits for the better jobs. However, for most it is the way of life that is appealing and for many just a summer job.
I miss the job and the lifestyle, but not the money Tips were always good though!!!!!!!

[stoater]

Greenalert, I'm sorry, but you are well wide of the mark in my opinion.
Landowners may well be land rich, but cash poor. Between 1984-1989 I worked for £1 an hour runnning a large stillwater fishery, and keepering a smallish shoot. I had to buy and maintain my own caravan. I did it because I enjoyed it. I got maybe a couple of bottles of wine at Xmas from my most generous Sportsman, certainly not a daily tip from each Rod!
Today, I think most folk would agree that a paid-for house must be worth at least £6,000 a year-probably in a lovely location too! Wage (well beneath minimum wage) £8,000 a year. Vehicle, which is most peoples normal serious luxury expenditure, may be paid for.
The beats that can sustain a full-time gillie are usually fully booked for 6 months of the year. Tweed beats are often fully booked 8-10 months a year. If "an average beat" has 3 rods (most have more), the average additional income for a gillie- at the suggested minimum £10/rod/day figure- is £180 a week. What I'm trying to say is that the overall package for a full-time gillie is probably £20,000+ per annum. I'm not saying that is a lot. I retrained as a social worker though and the marginal disposable income is probably insignificant.
I am, if you cannot already tell, averse to the whole concept of Tipping. I don't regard myself as Socialist, more as a equal rights man! The continued stance of "it's only right/traditional/proper" to tip workers in a particular industry, or occupation, is a stance I feel genuinely unpleasant and a throwback to the master-servant-slave thing that we are so well rid of. Comments by gillies that openly say they give good "tippers" superior service sadly only go to perpetuate this discrimination. Apart from bringing their whole profeesion into disrepute, and open to very obvious and advertised corruption.
My own position on tipping varies a lot. If someone offers to take me out in a boat for a morning, £20 is coming his way, more if he is sound and helpful regarding fresh local advice. If a gillie ( of say 4 Rods) spends maybe 45mins over 2 visits through the day with the same helpful advice, he's earned a tenner no probs.
My difficulty starts when, having allocated beats, a gillie gravitates towards those Rods that he knows or suspects will tip him the most money. This is sadly very common, and very unfair to (say) a new Rod. Quite frankly it is most unpleasant to be told that Tipping is compulsory, particularly when that gillie makes litttle or no effort to help you.
I have met some Great gillies, but equally, I don't feel it right to tip a new or stand-in gillie who I have spent several hours telling him about a beat I may have fished on for many many more hours tham him.
Difficult thing this tipping thing.

[kercock]

£2O,OOO , plus a house, I am in the right job but very definately in the wrong place Yes I get the motor,now, but I spent a lot of years paying lots of cash replacing various,steering and suspension parts. We have the fishing but do not own the road to the beat,which is best described as sh#te
I do the best I can, lend out tackle which occasionaly is'nt returned, I bear the cost but doe'snt stop me doing it. People are people.
I don't enjoy twatting about in the boat,yes it's a means to catching fish, but , if there are six guests there are four I cannot help,from scratch or by way of improvement in tecnique simply because I'm in the boat.I prefer to use it as a taxi and taking people real fishing.
I have to say I have seen some good comments on this thread on tipping,or not, but I have seen some hypocritical p#sh as well. Bottom line is some do and some don't

[ceilidh]

In general, a tip of between £10-20 per day would seem to be a reasonable norm, however, there are some situations in which this would be either inadequate or excessive.

If you have had absolutely no help except for a friendly greeting upon arrival or, as fortunately seldom happens, a surly or offensive ghillie, then it would be inappropriate to tip at all. However, if you are fishing as a guest this could be embarrassing to your host, who might be unaware of your treatment, but should certainly be informed of this.

On the other hand, some ghillies with whom I have fished for many years have become good personal friends to whom tipping might prove embarrassing for one or the other of us. In such circumstances a bottle of good single malt might prove an adequate substitute for one or even two days fishing, but a week would require considerably more!

[salmoseeker]

If the ghillie deserved it he'd get my respect but not my money; I'm sorry but I don't tip taxi drivers, waitresses or the guy who cuts my hair. Also I hate all this crapolla about rewarding the ghillie for a good day; the man's just doing his job, same as I do, so whats with the patronising cash giving. I think it boils down to good people not being afforded appropriate renumeration by their employers. No offence boys - ex ghillie.

[scotia]

salmoseeker said:

If the ghillie deserved it he'd get my respect but not my money; I'm sorry but I don't tip taxi drivers, waitresses or the guy who cuts my hair. Also I hate all this crapolla about rewarding the ghillie for a good day; the man's just doing his job, same as I do, so whats with the patronising cash giving. I think it boils down to good people not being afforded appropriate renumeration by their employers. No offence boys - ex ghillie.

Can only disagree with you here buddy.
The service a ghillie provides is not comparable with a taxi driver or hairdresser.If you get a poor haircut you dont go back,if your taxi driver is repeatedly late you dont use him again eh!Cant think you worked any thing like a top beat with these comments.The Ghillie who is for example caring about his fishers arrives well before 9 am, the time on conditions of let. The Ghillie sets a fire just now to warm the hut,he may even offer tea/coffee that he's bought for his customers,as estates do not provide refreshments for their guests.He then takes/asks to assemble your tackle and inspects it and as he assembles it he checks for detail that may lose a fish like a bad braided loop etc.Anyway when he's satisfied that your gear his sound he will look to allocate beats taking into cognaicance peoples mobility requirements.He then will go over the beat conditions to ensure no one adversly affects their own and other anglers pleasure.He advises what the water height and temperature are and what the best fly fishing tactics should be.In all probability now you will sign a declaration re Gyrodactylus and he ensures he's doing his best to safeguard the rivers stocks for future generations.Anyway rods asembled,joints taped flies tied he will probably take you to your beat and go over all the lies and explain how to maximise your opportunities of getting a fish in the current conditions beat by beat.You will be well enough briefed to tackle your fishing with confidence and you know when you hook a fish he will in all likelihood appear as if by magic to ensure you the angler get the fish in safely and efficiently ensuring the fish has a chance,where possible to be returned,should you wish to or if its a river requirement.He will troop around the beats and ensure all rods get the best attention he can give and he will probably collect you and take you back to hut for lunch,offering more refreshments he's supplying,catering and washing and drying cups/dishes etc.
Repeat process in many ways for afternoon ensuring you are always filled with confidence the the Fish could take any minute.
If at the end of the day 5 anglers tip and 1 doesnt, can you imagine the 1 who hasnt has a realistic right to be given the same degree of attention to detail as the other rods if and when he returns to fish the beat again?
Aye lets all pretend he's going the extra mile cos he is a great guy and wants to pamper you,he respects the fact you earn your wage and want to fish the best of beats and expect premium service for Hee haw.As an ex Ghillie I and other readers can only speculate as to why you are an ex Ghillie.I'll give you a tip never bite the hand that feeds.

[Sloggi]

Interesting post Scotia - i'd like to meet that ghillie You have obviously met the ghillie of all ghillies

It's always hard to compare jobs. However, it is now legal practice that a worker has a job description and, more often than not, a person specification. These two documents should outline the requiremnts of the job some of which you mention in your post. My point is that all the points you mention are his basic, standard job requirements. Tipping should be when he goes the "extra mile".


Fundamentally, your point about future help to the angler by the size of his tip (no puns please!) is thoroughly unprofessional and should be frowned upon. The ghillie must remember that he is there because of the angler - no anglers; no need for the ghillie.

[elwyman]

I don't think I've come across a bad gillie yet, and my tip depends on how much effort they put in to show me the beat etc.

Steve and I fished a new tweed beat last Saturday and the gillie spent the whole day with us and even took us out in the boats. He was good craic and put a lot of effort into looking after us both.

I tipped more than usual because of this. In fact I had to empty my wallet because Steve had spent all his cash in the pub the night before. ;D

[elwyman]

springer said:

salmoseeker said:

I think it boils down to good people not being afforded appropriate renumeration by their employers. No offence boys - ex ghillie.

Pay a Ghillie a fair and decent wage and expect of him the standards you aspire to in your description.

I agree with that, and have suggested that before.

On the other hand, I suppose the tipping system is an incentive system, similar to performance related bonuses that apply in many jobs today. I suppose it works from that point of view.

[Sloggi]

elwyman said:

springer said:

Pay a Ghillie a fair and decent wage and expect of him the standards you aspire to in your description.

I agree with that, and have suggested that before.

On the other hand, I suppose the tipping system is an incentive system, similar to performance related bonuses that apply in many jobs today. I suppose it works from that point of view.

It's usual practice that incentive systems are paid by the employer not the customer

[elwyman]

sloggi said:

elwyman said:

I agree with that, and have suggested that before.

On the other hand, I suppose the tipping system is an incentive system, similar to performance related bonuses that apply in many jobs today. I suppose it works from that point of view.

It's usual practice that incentive systems are paid by the employer not the customer

Yes - I suppose it's more of a bribe then! ;D

[sagecaster]

I have experience from both sides of the fence.

The interesting thing that strikes me is that you can never tell if a tip is going to be offered, and quite often it's the dour un-engaging clients that give the largest tips!

Put simply a tip is a gratuity in recognition of the services for the day from your client/guest to you the gillie.

I think its a shame that some Employers take this into account, however in their defence, so do the Inland Revenue!

[stoater]

Munrokiller, I think you may have read my post the wrong way.
Firstly, I do not think my "overall" package for a full-time gillie with a house is overestimated at the equivalent of £20,000 an annum. If I'm that far wide of the mark should we re-look at my guesstimate?
Wages... say £8,000
House.....say £6,000
Tips......say £5,000
The above guesstimate pre-supposes several things. Fiirstly, you get a house and fish 6 months a year, on a 3 rod fully let beat. Tips are worked out on the minimum acceptable of £10 a day. My figures also presume that your employer pays well below the national minimum wage, and makes no payment at all towards your vehicle purchase or running costs.
As you know most full-time beats fish 3+ rods for 6+months a year. See how I get my £20.000 guesstimate?
If you read my original post my "master-servant" comment was my own point that in today's society, we are thankfully rid of the old class/slave/servant thing. All I'm saying is that if you feel so aggrieved and disparaged by being caught in such a trap.... get out of it!
As Springer says, many many folk work their guts out to help others. Often, these others are disadvantaged, or, as in all business, tight! Do you tip in Mcdonalds? Or the Doctor?
As I have said, the whole expectation of "tipping" leaves our sport open to all sorts of unpleasant, unfair practices. After all, I and many others are on a similar wage to a full-time gillie, Springer and Sloggi spoke sense, Tipping is for exceptional service only!