Newtyle

[castslikeaghille]

I think this report of the current sale of Kercock sums up where the Tay is. The fishing equivalent of something you'd buy at an insolvency fire sale.

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/tayside_and_central/7044961.stm

One can only guess interest has been so low that the agents have put out a "salmon fishing bargain" press release on a slow news day to drum up potential buyers.

caveat emptor



CLaG

[castslikeaghille]

And so the sun sets on the Tay's season with a blockbuster 33 fish reported on Fish Tay for the last day ( yes I know it ignores the timeshare beats from Stanley - Redgorton).

So far my posts on this subject have been responded too with silence. Ok then, my simple question to all Tay system people out there is are you happy with this, and do you think the Tay has a sustainable future based on these sorts of catches?

If you care, please speak.

Regards

CLaG

[turrifftackle]

I am with you on this CLaG

I have been doing a little comparison on % released on various rivers and see the TAY at
2004 29% released
2005 37 % released
2006 35 % released.

Not sustainable in the long term

Attitudes / rules need to change.
The Spey in 2001 returned 30% of salmon now it is 71% for 2006.
We all need to keep the pressure on.

Frank

[victorclem]

CLaG,

I did a bit of number crunching myself a couple of weeks ago and submitted this to Comment magazine, out this week.

www.commentonline.co.uk/wildlife/SalmonCatchImprovementsNotLocally.htm

I watched WTG catch one small fish with ten rods on today, he has been getting 2-3 per week this past two and a half months with 10 rods every day. I think people will start to question why they are doing this with those odds of success pretty soon, and they will stay away unless they can see a clear and simple strategy for doing something about it.

The problem at the moment is that there was a relatively good year in 2006, and there seems to be no official recognition that things have changed. I think the Tay probably needs one more bad year for the penny to drop. Some people can see the problem, but many are still oblivious, in my opinion. There have been a lot of posts like this one this summer on a variety of threads, but they peter out quickly. Discussion is too divided.

I am wondering if one thread could be pinned at the top of this forum like the Garry thread with a poll with a suitably phrased question attached. That way you would get discussion in one place only, a united voice could be put forward, and things quantified. Arguably, it should be co-ordinated with the other salmon website(s) as well.

This one needs to be carefully thought out, because you cannot just go along to an TDSFB AGM and vent your frustration (although there will be a few doing that this year).

If there are a thousand members of this forum, maybe half who know the Tay, and if those who are prepared to vote can each spread the word to ten others, maybe then you could start to quantify things a bit. The good thing about these pro-boards are that a lot of people read them, and if TDSFB are looking bad compared to the other main rivers, they will have to sit up and take notice if thousands are making their feelings known.

Why dont you take a lead CLaG? But think it through first.

VC

[sagecaster]

castslikeaghille said:

And so the sun sets on the Tay's season with a blockbuster 33 fish reported on Fish Tay for the last day ( yes I know it ignores the timeshare beats from Stanley - Redgorton).

So far my posts on this subject have been responded too with silence. Ok then, my simple question to all Tay system people out there is are you happy with this, and do you think the Tay has a sustainable future based on these sorts of catches?

If you care, please speak.

Regards

CLaG

I care !! Having seen the Tay in its pomp briefly in the 70's as a boy I'm gutted that nothing was done 15 years ago!!

I also despair at the current attitude of nearly all the Tay salmon fisherman who lament about how good it used to be while still chapping their one or five fish for the pot. I was on the R Croy beat today and heard of only two fish being returned (one of which was mine )

I also know of a Tay ghillie or two who are of the old school and still chap happily while lamenting there are no fish. This abdication of responsibility is just not acceptable anymore and it needs to stop. Ultimately I believe that a large portion of Tay fishermen and ghillies suffer from living in a delusional bubble, where they still think that its acceptable to kill fish simply because there is no estate or river policy stating otherwise. We need a catchment wide enforced C&R policy plain and simple.

ClaG, I'd add "fly only" to your list, that'll really sort the men out from the boys. After all, they enforce this on the Tweed, Dee and the Spey

[donnieW]

I fished Muirtons for the first time yesterday and what an eye-opener that was! I left when I saw an angler walking up the bank with his 3rd dead fish. They were all fresh but not one of them will spawn. The angling pressure down there is shocking and there would appear to be no restriction on numbers of fish kept - please correct me if I'm wrong. The day before (Sunday) I went for a look at the water and saw the "rainbow fishers" in action.......
What you will find is that plenty people will, verbally, go along with proposed measures to improve the situation but, if and when the words rule or compulsory come into play, they will have second thoughts.
Guidelines and recommendations quite simply are not worth the paper they are written on
Surely any beat or association has the right to make their own rules regarding c&r - so who will start the ball rolling? It won't be the TDSFB.

[victorclem]

The Dee 100% C & R "rule" is voluntary, not compulsory, but it is enforced & policed effectively through peer pressure, initially among ghillies and among owners and now also among fishermen themselves. The best place to start the ball rolling is on the Agenda at a Tay Ghillies Association meeting. If they are convinced, the rest will take notice. If you cant convince them, nothing you propose is going to work, and you might then have to wait another year to try again. You will win the argument when the situation is bad enough. There are probably still enough people out there who are happy with their lot, but you can quantify this by getting the ghillies to debate and vote on it.

I also think that discussion on here needs to be more focused, and not spread around over 10-12 different threads on a number of websites.

VC

[castslikeaghille]

victorclem said:

The Dee 100% C & R "rule" is voluntary, not compulsory, but it is enforced & policed effectively through peer pressure, initially among ghillies and among owners and now also among fishermen themselves. The best place to start the ball rolling is on the Agenda at a Tay Ghillies Association meeting. If they are convinced, the rest will take notice. If you cant convince them, nothing you propose is going to work, and you might then have to wait another year to try again. You will win the argument when the situation is bad enough. There are probably still enough people out there who are happy with their lot, but you can quantify this by getting the ghillies to debate and vote on it.

I also think that discussion on here needs to be more focused, and not spread around over 10-12 different threads on a number of websites.

VC

IMHO - That is a very sensible suggestion for getting the ball rolling. Persuading people that their river is in such a state that C&R is needed, is much like getting alcoholics to admit they have a problem. While large numbers of vested interests on the Tay remain in denial or simply have no interest nothing will happen.

Regards

CLaG

[victorclem]

Do you hear that Jock? Agenda item for next TGA meeting. Does'nt matter if you reach a conclusion first time round, but should definitely have that discussion as a main part of Agenda, allowing 40-60 minutes.

VC

[scottyboy9nro]

am up for anyhin that saves the tay - a love the tay man

[greenalert]

ibm59 said:

scottyboy9nro said:

nearly shit a wooden onion

Just wet myself.
Again!
;D ;D ;D

Scotty ma boy, you have a great play on words

[Willie The Gillie]

We (TGA) had an emergency meeting with the TDSFB this afternoon (chairman present). The outcome on proposing a 100% C&R policy would at the moment seem to be a highly strong possibility. Of the majority of ghillies who showed up many agreed that it was important now to ask for 100% so as to re-educate (or lose) the chappers over the next few years and get more fish reproducing to build the stocks up again. I laboured on this point for quite some time and was surprised as was the TDSFB chairman that the bulk of the ghillies present (when asked for their views) were in total favour of 100%. Personally I do not believe that with things already bottoming out that the Tay we as a river could afford to lose another 3000 broodstock next season which it will if the 100% recommendations are not implemented by the TDSFB right now before the start of season 2008.
I sincerely hope what I saw/heard this afternoon happens - if it does this will be a significant starting/turning point for Tay salmon numbers. Up until this meeting today the TDSFB were going to suggest a tougher ruling but still allowing some fish to be killed which although better than their current policy still would encourage the killing of fish.
Fingers crossed.
Jock

[castslikeaghille]

williethegillie said:

We (TGA) had an emergency meeting with the TDSFB this afternoon (chairman present). The outcome on proposing a 100% C&R policy would at the moment seem to be a highly strong possibility. Of the majority of ghillies who showed up many agreed that it was important now to ask for 100% so as to re-educate (or lose) the chappers over the next few years and get more fish reproducing to build the stocks up again. I laboured on this point for quite some time and was surprised as was the TDSFB chairman that the bulk of the ghillies present (when asked for their views) were in total favour of 100%. Personally I do not believe that with things already bottoming out that the Tay we as a river could afford to lose another 3000 broodstock next season which it will if the 100% recommendations are not implemented by the TDSFB right now before the start of season 2008.
I sincerely hope what I saw/heard this afternoon happens - if it does this will be a significant starting/turning point for Tay salmon numbers. Up until this meeting today the TDSFB were going to suggest a tougher ruling but still allowing some fish to be killed which although better than their current policy still would encourage the killing of fish.
Fingers crossed.
Jock

Go for it WTG - if the boys are up for it you are more than half way there. Well done to you and the rest of the lads - yours aye - CLaG

[donnieW]

williethegillie said:

We (TGA) had an emergency meeting with the TDSFB this afternoon (chairman present). The outcome on proposing a 100% C&R policy would at the moment seem to be a highly strong possibility. Of the majority of ghillies who showed up many agreed that it was important now to ask for 100% so as to re-educate (or lose) the chappers over the next few years and get more fish reproducing to build the stocks up again. I laboured on this point for quite some time and was surprised as was the TDSFB chairman that the bulk of the ghillies present (when asked for their views) were in total favour of 100%. Personally I do not believe that with things already bottoming out that the Tay we as a river could afford to lose another 3000 broodstock next season which it will if the 100% recommendations are not implemented by the TDSFB right now before the start of season 2008.
I sincerely hope what I saw/heard this afternoon happens - if it does this will be a significant starting/turning point for Tay salmon numbers. Up until this meeting today the TDSFB were going to suggest a tougher ruling but still allowing some fish to be killed which although better than their current policy still would encourage the killing of fish.
Fingers crossed.
Jock

At a glance this looks promising. However, is it the case that the TDSFB will simply recommend that there is 100% c&r or will it be compulsory? What exactly is their "policy"? The board were going to "suggest a tougher ruling"!! They don't have a ruling at the moment, just recommendations.
After my days' fishing on Muirtons, followed by an hour on the (empty!) Sawmill beat on the Tummel, I was actually glad to see the end of a season. Never thought I would see the day..........

[tyneandrew]

Good luck guys - keep pushing them

You have my support

[victorclem]

Donnie,

It does not have to be compulsory, and I am not even sure if that is possible. IF TDSFB are unambiguous in their recommendation for 100% catch and release and ghillies are behind it as well, then you are more than half way there, and peer pressure will then deliver in increments over a couple of years. The Dee Conservation Code is voluntary, it is peer pressure that makes it work. Peer pressure is much stronger than legislation if you can get it working in your favour.

TDSFB should be commended if they take a lead on this, and if they do, then I think that all the "dinosaur" comments etc should then cease and give this a proper chance to work. This could be the most significant thing to happen on the tay for a long, long time.

VC

[Mach1]

Only a minority of the board voted for a 100% catch and release recommendation or a ban on the worm for next season at the last meeting 27/09/07. It is absolutely ridiculous, in fact scandelous, on a river like the Tay that worming is allowed and encouraged on some of it's most prolific beats. Thats why so many scum-bags keep coming back.

The board does not have any legislative powers whatsoever, only the Scottish Office can make it compulsory. But, if thats what it takes then so be it.

There are too many fishmongers on the Tay, even amongst Ghillies and that has to change.

The Dee is a great example of a properly managed fishery. With the expectation of a few beats, all fish are to be returned unharmed. Most beat rules stipulate that it is compusory.
Can you see that happening on the Tay? I don't think so.....

I think that irrespective of how much you have paid to fish, killing more than one fish for your week is outragious and 2 or 3 per season is ample for anyone who is too weak to put them back.

WDJ

[wilbert]

I think that irrespective of how much you have paid to fish, killing more than one fish for your week is outragious and 2 or 3 per season is ample for anyone who is too weak to put them back.

Spot on!

I mainly fish the river Ribble in Lancashire and we now have a 2 fish per season bylaw in place and are currently on a 3 year pilot carcass tagging scheme. The 2 fish limit has not made any difference to the amount of fishing that I do or the enjoyment that I get from it as I have never kept more than 1 salmon per season. It takes me and the family the best part of 8 months to eat a 10lb fish as I don't want salmon for tea every week.

Most anglers are in full support of the 2 fish limit and the ones that are against it are short sighted d1ck heads and I wouldn't shed any tears if they hung their rods up and didn't renew their club memberships and rod licence.

[juststartedagain]

sounds like progress at last..fingers crossed as WTG says that they follow this through and don't change their minds by the time the AGM comes...

If they do go ahead with this I think a question to be asked is how can more or new "representative anglers" be voted onto the board. To help this work it needs a wider set of anglers (not those currently associated with the big beat owners) but anglers who fish various beats on the river regularly and can be eyes and ears on the rivers to help in applying peer pressure..?

[salmo2406]

If I fish the worm does that make me a SCUM BAG?

I think not, yes I do fish the worm on occasion and enjoy it, however I also pay silly money to fish the fly on classic Tay beats and catch and release, best day four returned.

If Tay rods think all wormers are scumbags, I wont be joining them next year.

Comments please!!!