Tips to Gillie's

[ibrox]

Sorry Guys!

My apologies to the above mentioned members, I thought it was just a friendly wind up (2 + 2 = 5 and all that).

Obviously this Notipping chap is just out to amuse himself, do us all a favour and use your hand next time.

I for one won't be replying to his dribble.

Gillies need all the help they can get and I support the ghillie.

Mike

[salmoseeker]

I agree with springer, this is a fishing forum.

[notipping]

salmoseeker,,,,that fish looks like a kelt m8,,,bit dodgy,,,

[betanut]

Oh dear oh dear

[bagoworms]

The thread might be cold but let's warm it up again. Time for some clear logic. The key word is "choice". Nobody forces a gillie to do the job, when you take a job surely you take it knowing the ups and downs? I worked as a gamekeeper for a while and found the whole tipping thing took away a little dignity from both sides. It was great (and often put food on the table) when you got it but there were many months in the year outside the season when you did not get tips anyway so times were usually less than comfortable but I chose to do the job - for the (selfish) reasons that I did not have to sit in some airless office, endure daily traffic jams, shuffle papers, have budgets and teams of people to manage, etc. etc. But I never felt comfortable taking tips, nor did I ever feel the guests were entirely comfortable giving them (not in a financial sense, more a personal sense). 19th Century deferential behaviour inappropriate to the 20th/21st Century?

I chose lifestyle over great financial reward /benefits when I chose to work as a gamekeeper. The Laird did not force me into the job, I took the job willingly, knowing what I would receive as a result. Low pay does not automatically signify low intellect. I knew what I was getting into and wanted to get in. I'm sure that holds the same for most gillies.

We'd all love to do what we wanted irrespective of consequences but reality often forces us to do otherwise. There are however a few brave hearts who remain true to their own wishes and choose their path - salute those free spirits!.

However, to choose a path, then forever expect to rely on others to fund that path and make up deficiencies on our behalf is surely flawed thinking?

A fiver extra per rod/day on all beats to fund increased renumeration/benefits for all gillies with no tipping allowed would restore dignity and commonsense all around? Make award (as is normal practice in most industries today) dependent upon simple, regular, customer satisfaction survey results focusing not just on the gillies but also including the letting agents, proprietors, access, facilities, etc. Poor results all around mean the extra goes into, say, river improvement and instead remedial action based upon direct feedback from paying customers (which should so anyway but how many fishers have ever had that opportunity apart from using their feet to vote?)

Be open and publish the results on the river website, based upon standard, river-specific surveys. "Good" results attract more business, "poor" performers lose out on business and have to sharpen up their act but know where they need to improve.

Thereafter it is their choice whether they do or not.

[rpsalmon]

Since the time when I've seen a ghillie work the hardest, was during a period of low water when the ghillie was being asked to pull fish out of a hat but nothing was caught, it is difficult to set any standard on tipping. I do think the fairest system is to tip per fish, and if the fishery boards would approve a suggested system whereby 10% of the weekly rent is divided by the average catch for that week over last three years in order to arrive at a basis for tipping, then I believe we would have a satisfactory basis for a system. I've never understood why they don't just state the suggested tip on web sites, or the owners don't just pay the Ghillie per fish caught by each paying angler.

I know one Ghillie who specifically plans the time when he receives tips, dealing with each one alone in order to "clarify how many fish they've caught", at the same time holding at least a few hundred pounds in cash ...all the time giving the impression that one other angler gave him the cash as a tip ... and therefore implying and obligating this next angler to do the same. He does it so smoothly I am always reminded of the Paul Newman film called "The Sting". However, I will add that he is one of the best ghillies around, gives advice and flies freely and without favour, lends different lines, tackle etc, takes pictures, cleans and packs fish without suggesting he should be given extra money, gets fish to take the fly in order that anglers can "catch" the fish, keeps their kids occupied elsewhere, doesn't amuse himself with the anglers' ladies, carry out car repairs and change tyres etc, arranges for a new rod to be delivered that day, teaches everything, supplies food and drink, arranges for other fishing if wanted, organises transport, he even once set up a place near by for someone to bring their two helicopters. I could go on but I am sure you'll appreciate he earns his money.

I didn't tip one ghillie because he didn't return my calls to enquire about conditions, I didn't see him or his vehicle on the day, and only found out he hadn't forgot about me because he telephoned me to say he couldn't find his "envelope" in the hut. I wish I'd left an empty envelope in the hut!

I know one ghillie and two assistants who were run ragged and couldn't do enough for some millionaire continentals, there wasn't a single one of the anglers who didn't learn a hell of a lot or catch at least 9 fish for their week, as a collective tip they were given five pounds each. One of his assistants, who could accept doing the toilets and cleaning, even being treat like muck, couldn't accept that and packed it in, apparently he got a decent job where he had rights and was paid a decent amount.

I've just remembered a good one. The deer had been at the bark of trees and the bright wood was showing. One angler was convinced the only reason he hadn't caught anything was because the salmon were put off by the bright wood. He went on about it so much the ghillie had no choice but to paint the tree trucks with wood stain! When I asked him if the angler subsequently caught any fish he turned to me sharply but bit his lip, I can guess he didn't!

[garry4]

when do you ever see a skint gillie ha ha always fancy cars and no rubbish fishing gear ha

[zephead]

I agree that tipping per fish is the fairest way but have many times tipped more than a basic £10 when I have caught nowt because a ghillie,or more likely boatman,has been pulling his arms out in a strong stream and wind all day etc or has added to my knowleadge and enjoyment.

Absolute bollocks,however to a bloody Fishery Board setting me a guideline to tipping.It's down to the individual sportsmans discretion and should not be subject to another instrument of the nanny state-after all I'm not a Communist.

I wouldn't tip for shooting on the price per bird,only an appropriate rate for the size of the bag to reflectthe quality of the shooting put over the team and I certainly wouldn't start tipping for fishing against the cost of the day.I also tend to be more generous when I m an invited guest as I wasn't paying for the sport myself.

As a rule,I tip a tenner a day,£20 a fish and much more if I have had a good day and have been well looked after,never mind what has ended up on the bank.If I'm lucky enough to get a bootful of fish that was due to the boatmans skills then added remuneration is quickly forthcoming.This excludes rugby international tickets,members badges for race meetings,dinner,bottles of vino and malt as well as various other expressions of gratitude for assistance on the river.

I also make sure these days that if I'm rained/flooded off and I pitch on the day that the ghillie gets his tip and if I'm not there he is seen right when I'm next on the beat or its rolled into the tip for the week/trip.If you were shooting you'd tip your loader if you were fogged off so why not tip your ghillie the basics-its got me well looked after upon return visits without the feeling I was being made a special case of because I was likley to tip big.

I also insist that ghillies are looked after in terms of an invitation to dine with the rods at lunch and where the ghillies knock off over lunch and leave the rods to their own thing make sure that at least one day towards the end of the week they are made extremely welcome at the lunch table as well as extending a dinner invite or for a few beers depending on the individuals preference.

I won't tip where I've been messed about,left to wade in a dangerous pool without warning/instruction and where I have been given a doing over with the pool rota twisted against me by the ghillie if I'm a lone day rod in an established weekly party.

I also make sure I check what is the "expected" tip from the organiser of a weekly party to which I am invited,whether the head man or and individual ghillie is to be paid on the day or at the end of the week/my departure and that any additional gratuity I make to an individual for some special reason does find it's way to the right man.

I work on the basis it pays to err on the side of generosity within your personal reasonable means and the mutual teamwork it takes to get a fish is far more important in many instances than financial reward from both parties perspective.

ZH

[zephead]

Garry4-pretty crass and badly informed remark IMHO.

There are plenty of senior ghillies who live on extraordinarly skinny wages,especially those on partly syndicated beats who only ever get an annual tip from their rods at the end of the season and then often its £50 and a bottle instead of the £3-400 they'd have per rod if they'd have had day/week lets.

As for vehicles,if you use it to get to and from home to the beat then how many ghillies can afford £2-3K in car tax for a high emission 4x4 out of wages that are sub-£20K pax and even if you work for Hardy you still have to contribute to the cost of some of your gear.

B&W,Sage,etc don't give this stuff away gratis by any stretch of the imagination-its often either sold at cost or the estate buy it to stop it being sold on when a new model comes along and the estate/ghillie have to insure it against breakages.

ZH

[bagoworms]

I'm not getting this - who among us thinks it anything like acceptable practice in the 21st Century to pay a professional a pittance and expect him/her to "get by better" thanks to "discretionary handouts" from others?

Yes, if pay for gillies went up, then rents would rise, but that would remove the need for the whole tipping roullete too. If some of us routinely tip £0-100/day (read the string) that surely equates to a total personal fisher outlay of £rent+£tip x day(s)? What therefore would be the problem in paying an increased, one-price-for-all rent up-front, no tipping required? C##p beats/gillies? No problem, feet-voting will take care of them. "Show-Off" tippers (again read the string) don't have a stage. For the gillie with part-syndicated water, it would work too. Syndicate rates would have to rise as well as daily lets outside syndicate periods. Gillie still gets a proper rate for his services instead of a minimum basic agri-wage insult with a bottle thrown in (or not) at season's end and doesn't need to hope that some day rods are unusually generous. Part-time gillies also benefit pro-rata (never actually met one, I'm sure they know what I mean).

Or do some fishers secretely like playing "laird for a day" and get some perverse pleasure out of "looking after our man"? I'm not a communist but also I'm not a laird, just a working bloke like most of us trying to have some sort of work/life balance . Think wider - other strings in this forum are all about those who would have fishing banned altogether. Never mind about cruelty to fish -what are we doing about unfairness to those who work to get us those fish in the first place? (Answers on a postcard please).

As to tips dependent upon fish caught, let's not even get started. A gamekeeper can put 1,000 birds over 8 guns. If none of them could not shoot their own feet never mind well-presented driven birds then the 'keeper should not eat that night? Don't think so.

Nobody forces a gillie to become a gillie but we should also not reinforce a system that is so deferential, haphazard, random and subjective (8 pages of string and counting if you don't believe me).

[rpsalmon]

I don't know the beats concerned, but I am actually quite shocked than someone would tip just £10 as a basic for a ghillies services. I naturally assume, because I know it is usually the case, that ghilles are on very low pay and any of his assistants are likely to be getting even less. If a beat is useless then don't fish it. If a beat is worth something and there are the services of a ghillie then unless you know otherwise, it is implicit with taking the fishing that people are appropriately rewarded for their work. It is up to the anglers fishing whatever period to ensure that an appropriate level of reward is given to ghillies, surely a basic wage for each person has to be considered an absolute minimum for a "no frills service". For the purposes of those people who take Scrooge's "practical approach" I will pose a rhetorical question. When the Ghillie knows the beat is stuffed with fish, who do you think he will ring to fill rods (at little or no cost), people who are polite, friendly, appreciative and supply reasonable tips, even in the bad times, or people who tip poorly and who are unappreciative of their services! Another one, when the beat is heavily booked, guess which kind of angler is invariably found a place!

[zephead]

I agree entirely RPS-I have a lot of difficulty in juggling work with short notice fishing invitations from boatmen and ghillie's.

As for tips being include in the price of a days fishing I am dead against it for a few reasons:-

(1)If it goes to the estate then chances are the ghillie will never see it.

(2)It's taxable-once its had VAT added and the ghillies income tax taken off he could well be in a 40% bracket if all "tips" are added to his wages and I ain't funding G Brown Ltd thro my fishing anymore than I have to.

(3) If I want to make a gesture of a personal gift then I will do and I'm not having the estate or Government telling me how its going to be so they can get their "end" out of it.

As for numbers I will start.

If a boatmen pulls his arms out in a November gale and I get 5 fish then I'm much more inclined to tip big than if I'm left alone to wade all day in unknown water and land my own fish in July when I might get a couple of grilse to the sound of a strimmer bleating on and the ghillie sunbathing as IMHO there is a direct correlation between effort and advice from the ghillie and fish on the bank.

If I have had a good day,learnt loads,have had plenty of fun but without having touched a fin I'll maybe tip as big as if I have had a day with lots of fish landed but there have been enough days when I have been left to fathom a beat to the sight of a ghillie wading at a regular rods shoulder all day to convince me to start low and work up with quality of service on an unknown beat.If its good it goes up towards teatime like Bolivian inflation.

As for the shooting analogy-the keeper would have pre-sold 1000 birds and if the team who have come to shoot them were ignorant in their own abilities as well as to tipping against an expected,never mind shot bag then the keeper would be thrilled because he will undoubtedly let another day to a regular high tipping team at a discount so as to have his surplus mopped up.

ZH

[rpsalmon]

I've always given my tips, or organised the tips for the Ghillies, and made sure they get them. You can get a few factors who "hover" and you can't help but get the impression they want their cut of cash, but certainly where the factor has arranged an odd day or I have had a week I have always ensured he gets some high class "spritual" fulfillment, also if any lady working in the office has contributed to my fishing then something will go her way. I have found it beneficial for all when I have shown gratitude, respect and appreciation.

There was one Factor's secretary, she was stunning and had smoother lines than any salmon I've seen, I think we were too old to lure her but we enjoyed the fishing. We all showed her our deepest appreciation for brightening up five out of the six days of our week in giving her a present, mainly she'd just walked along the track with our lunch and kept us company over lunch, but what a walk and what a lunch! Four years later, and on another river, I told the story to some people and learned that the lady was one of their sisters, he told me that lady had met and married a rich angler. We met the lady again a few months later and she genuinely remembered us, to cut a long story short, her husband also became a friend and we now share each others fishing. He has Spring fishing and we have Autumn fishing, sharing the fishing works out fine, oh, and his wife is still incredible!

I fished a beat twice before learning that a charming young man, about seven years old who carried and landed fish, kept an eye open for salmon rises including telling us what type of rise it was, was not the Ghillie's son and had just "attached himself" to the beat without pay. We made sure he got a 10ft trout rod & reel etc to start him up. That young man is now a Ghillie, more importantly he is still a friend. Guess who's at the top of his list when there is a spare rod in July?

[clydesider]

Hi all
How many of you like me have enjoyed holidays in Florida, the last word in tipping. No matter where you go or what service you enjoy, tipping is an endemc part of their culture and woe betide you if you dont come up with the goods at the required rate. The Yanks arent shy of telling you if you are a skinflint in the tipping department.
Others have said it all before me. If a gillie puts himself/herself out to look after you then a gratuity is a small price to pay to recognise service rendered whether you catch fish or not.
I for one would not like to exist on a gillies salary in this day of average salaries aroung £23k.
The strange paradox for me is that I never tip my doctor or my dentist or a whole load of other professionals who look after me. Funny old thing this tipping lark.
Mike

[bagoworms]

Well said Clydesider! How many gillies out there would rather have the average salary around £23k without having to rely on the tipping "lark"? I also think that it is questionable practice, as implied in other contributions, to see tipping as more a way of ensuring favouritism from the gillie next time 'round rather than a mark of appreciation for the day that has past. Pity then the holiday angler who only gets a few days a year or someone trying out a new beat.

I also visit the states regularly and know from bitter experience the endemic "tip hustling" culture, it is founded upon a low basic wage too. It's used to ensure that the service provider does just that, provides great service irrespective of "punter" and I'm sure Clydesider has experienced that side of it too in Florida, probably making the culture a little more palatable.

Regular holidays in Florida Clydesider? If you are a gillie, then what kind of a line does Bill Gates, Richard Branson and the Sultan of Brunei thraw?

[billytheghillie]

would you row a boat in howling winds for £47 a day minus tax etc.? 6 days a week 10 month a year? no didnt think so. remember being good to us ghilliies will always pay of, i can put you in hot spots or the crap ones. moral is be good to your ghillie and you will have an excellent day! i for one would welcome 23k a year thats double my salary with extras.

[scotty]

i pesonaly dont tip, as i dont usualy fish beats with gillies, but as bagoworms states it was the gillies choice to do the job, they know the ups and downs of it. if they dont like the wages get another job.

scotty.

[billytheghillie]

what if there was no ghillies? u arrive at beat say 4 mile of water, what would you prefer, to muddle about yourself and try to find likely looking spots, or have someone to point you in right direction? if you only have one day fishing i know what i would pick.

[scotty]

the topic is not about if there was no gillies it is about tipping to gillies,i would personaly not tip, i dont anyone else for jobs

[rpsalmon]

It is entirely legitimate for billytheghillie to forward the scenario of not having the benefit of a ghillie in order to highlight the benefits of having a ghillie. Whether anyone likes the system or not, and I suspect everyone but the fishery owners don’t, the system is well known and has stood the test of time and experience. Can anyone come up with a better system? Pay per fish caught?